Ready to buy my next truck....should i go for new or used?

I'll piggyback on what mlawver2000 had to say. We run mostly Cascadias in our fleet here with the DD13. The average load is about 25-30k and we're governed at 62 MPH. My fleet MPG is over 8.

The downside to the new trucks are the emissions systems, but we'll all have to deal with them. We have both DEF and DPF trucks. At this juncture, I would recommend DEF over DPF, even with having to pay extra for the urea fluid when you fuel. The DPF regeneration process can take up to 45 minutes or so for a parked regen, and the system is prone to malfunctions. The DPF filters are expensive when they go... $1500-3000 for parts and servicing the system. Our DEF trucks have definitely been more reliable, other than when one of the drivers decided to try putting diesel in the DEF tank.

Another thing to think about is the APU system. Freightliner's ParkSmart system sometimes doesn't have the battery power to sustain a full 10 hour break on a hot day, and some days 8 hours is pushing it. The International ProStars we have are a much better design; the truck kicks on the idle automatically when the APU battery gets low until it's charged.

If I had to purchase now, I'd probably go new to get the most up to date emissions and APU systems. There were a lot of bugs in those things between 2009-2012. The higher payment will be worth having a warranty and more than likely less maintenance costs and down time.

I'd also recommend getting the heck out of CA...

 

Tell me a American Truck ,made in USA,i think the Volvo is more American then Kw or pete

 

Yes quite a bit of pump and air offs. Also a good bit of idling.

 

I looking to purchase my first semi. This guy has one that he is selling. It is a 2005 freightliner Columbia C15 Cat engine,
Dual pipes, new steer,and shocks. New ECM, rebuilt rear end.
New air compressor, cold A/C. This truck has been loved....
Ready to jump in and turn the key, and start working.
900,000+miles
Truck has one bad drive tire.. The price is $14,000 (FIRM)

Do you think this is a good deal?????

 

of course its a great deal

but take it from experience, make sure you have money for major repairs which MAY happen sooner than later (and this can happen on any truck, even brand new)

before you drop the $14k, spend a few hundred having it diagnosed, and gone over with a fine tooth comb, you may fine something that can even bring the price lower and you will be aware of any looming problems in the future

 

Thank you!!!!

 

Some considerations beyond just opinion...

Do you have a reliable mechanic beyond your local dealer or run of the mill engine shop? If so, then I would start talking to them about what they see the most, and what to avoid.

Statisticly, the Newest engines with the DEF on them have had the biggest maint. costs and downtime so far (announced by a professional reseacher very recently on the truckers-xm-radio), exceeding 0.12-0.15c/mile or more in costs. I can easily vouch for this statement just by talking to many of my friends who own these DEF fluid trucks, and not a single one of them (of about 8 friends) has seen any fuel mileage increases that justify the cost of the DEF fluid, vs their older EGR,but non-def trucks long term. Most of my friends tho, have learned to bypass these costs by doing their own minor maintenence.

Are you mechanicly inclined to a slight degree? If so, then this will save you thousands uppon thousands, dealing with owning one of the newer trucks.

The Pre AND post DEF DD-15's are typically plagued with engine injector failure at about the 380-460k mileage range, and the EGR components deteriorate, causing repeated downtime starting in this mileage range as well. The C-60 series EGR emgines were not nearly as bad, but the EGR systems typically gave way to problems after the 600+k mileage range.

I cannot comment about CAT engines, no research on them.

Cummins EGR engines Pre-2008 have poor intake and EGR designs, this resulted in lower fuel mileage compared to thier detroit cousins at that time. EGR valves and delta-p sensors like to fail on them often. Post 2008 egines faired much better in design, EGR valves last much longer, but the rest of the EGR components have a much shorter lifrespan of 250-350k without service, before problems set in. There is one advantage cummins has tho, concerning reliability. It is the fact that you can keep the EGR and DPF systems healthy yourself if you are even slightly mechanicly inclined, because the engines are much easier to work on, have fewer components, and the computer is very forgiving to the 'do-it-yourselfer'. They are also easy to modify for both power and/or fuel mileage increases. The newest DEF cummins engines are the same as the '08- early-'11 PRE-DEF models, close in fuel mileage, and the DEF system is, as well, fairly easy to keep healthy yourself, by simply keeping the filters and injector clean.

NO engine or dealer shop is going to keep ANY of these engines healthy for you without severly ripping you off. Many don't know how to, following their computer diag. software like blind mice, and others just cannot be bothetred, because they are so swamped with work. This is why there are countless horror stories out there about them.

Personal recomendation...
Get a truck that is 2010+ compliant, PRE-DEF, that you can learn to maintain the EGR/DPF systems yourself on, especially if your plan is to keep it for 1-million+ miles. I know many O/o's who do this including myself, saving tens of thousands in repair costs alone. For a reference point, I own a 2011 Pre-DEF truck with a cummins engine, have maintained the EGR/DPF systems myself for more than 550k miles on it, and it is still breaking 9+mpg every day, hauling 53-ft dry vans, 20-35k in box at 55-60 mph. I aslo have helped several other O/o,s get their engines straightened out after getting hosed by the Stealers.

Perhaps this bit of insight will help you toward deciding what type of truck, engine, and year model to be considered, when planning the future of your business.

Good Luck,...Rawze

 

Actually would have guessed the DEF trucks to be cheaper/more reliable. Good to know.

If you do not mind, what does a buyer need to immediately do to a used Cummins DPF motor with regards to emission equipment? Guessing you bought yours new?
Most dealers will tell you they cleaned/replaced/serviced the DPF, but that is kind of where the info stops. I know the egr coolers, valves & turbo can still be a issue.

 

There are many mechanics that will likely disagree with what I am going to post here. I am sure they have their reasons. I sit behind the wheel all day, lisetening to the sound of my engine, paying for fuel, etc. I can tell right away when something is off-key per say, long before any alarm ever arises...


Here are the steps I would go through with a truck owner who just purchased a used truck with an isx, say 08'-11' CM871 for example, teaching them how to keep these systems healthy themselves,... I am only refferring to the EGR/DPF here in this example, skipping other, more obious things,...Lets also assume the truck has ~380k miles on it and has been neglected, outside of typical shop maint, but runs fairly well in its curent condition (typical of a recently purchased used truck)...

First thing is first,...Determine the health of these systems and see what has already been done...

<> EGR cooler, Visual: Looking to see if it has ever been replaced. Replacements are typically silver in color, or show signs of being re-painted. If it HAS been replaced, this is a good sign. Failure rates on these are high during the truck's first 180-200k milage range, where the warranty will still cover it. They fail due to settling of the block during the engine break-in period, causing mechanical stress to the unit. Cummins Engineering, when I asked about this in 2010, informed me that it was an 80% failure rate, and that they did studies on loosening/re-tigtening the bolts to relieve stress with little results. Replacement is more effective. After that first failure, re-occurrences are not common unless the engine suffers conditions that cause the block to 'settle' again, like say changing its governed speed by a large amount and driving it hard at the new speed. Regardless, keep a close eye on coolant levels, marking the tank at a given known coolant temperature.

<> DPF, Visual: Look for signs to see if it has been removed/replaced. If it HAS, this is a red flag. The DPF on a cummins is big enough to sustain a healthy exhaust flow for about 700k+ miles, where ASH, not soot or coolant, will finally cause it to read above 3.0hpa on a constant basis (above 3.0 costs fuel mileage). The only exception to this is if it gets cracked/damaged due to excess road stress or being impacted by road debris (not very common but can happen). Why then is it so common for it to fail or be replaced/cleaned before this mileage range?,...Outside problems, #1 being the after-treatment injector going bad, then second, a poorly running engine that produces a lot of excess soot, or a bad EGR cooler plugging it up with coolant. ALL of witch can be avoided, with good maintenence practices, long before it kills the DOC/DPF. If it has been replaced or cleaned at 380K miles or less, then it is highly likely there were, and are still problems with the engine/EGR system. Removing the DOC/DPF should only be a LAST-RESORT type item when everything else has been done to avoid it, and it is the only thing left, after replacing the injector/sensors with a new ones and force-regening it to determine its actual hpa.

<>Determine/Remove the soot buildup in the EGR system: Remove the IMAP sensor from the intake manifold. Very easy to do, takes less than a minute. If it is buried in soot, and it will be, at 250k+ miles, it is, at the very least, costing you fuel mileage by now, or at its worst, causing turbo problems, power loss, hesitation in the acelerator, and/or excess soot problems. You will get turbo actuator alarms long before you get alarms for this sensor being cloged. Many mechanics are fooled by this, chasing ghost problems in the much more expensive components like the turbo, egr valve, etc. I have the Insite/ Fault tree software. On its best dsays, it is only about 30% acurate in dealing with these type of ptroblems. The IMAP sensor, most of the time, can simply be cleaned using a dry toothbrush and NO chemicals. This one sensor has actually put many O/o's out of buisness. I have witnessed trucks go from 4-mpg to 8-mpg, just from cleaning it.
Asuming it was in fact covered in soot, you will need several cans of 'Carb and Choke' cleaner. NOT 'Brake cleaner'!!!. Brake cleaner turns everything into a soot magnet. You will have to remove the intake manifold, Venturi (egr mixer) pipe, and Delta-P crossover tubes, washing them out, to bring back the engine's full fuel mileage potential and New-running glory. The Delta-P (EGR Differential Pressure Sensor), if it is the origional from the factory (painted red), it will have to be replaced. It cannot be cleaned properly without it giving false readings afterards. As this sensor clogs up, it causes EGR valve and EGR actuator alarms and problems, power loss, fuel mileage loss, and 'turbo-coughig' problems, quite often without ever throwing a code for the sensor.

<>Clean/Replace Exhaust Manifold Backpressure sensor: This sensor usually lasts 400-600+k miles before giving problems. It can usually be just simply cleaned, along with its feeder tube, comming off the exhaust manifold. If it is going bad, the turbo will act up. Symptoms can be of,...Turbo-coughing, turbo-lag, actuator alarms, turbo overspin alarms, and/or even turbo inlet temperature alarms. This sensor can actually kill a turbocharger over time, and/or can cause a cracked head or gaskets from excess head pressures generted by the turbo acting up. This sensor can be cheked with Insite to see if is reading correctly if it is in question, but its a cheap sensor, so just replace it if its suspect.

<> The After-treatment injector (doser injector): It operates similar to a spray-can nozzle and is located at the turbo exhaust outlet. It is easy to inspect by simply removng the 2 exhaust clamps on either side of it and looking down into the pipe. They start clogging up at 250k+ miles like clockwork, even on engines that run well and have never been idled, causing many DPF and Regen problems when they do. They are easy to change, but only if your willing to drain your coolant into some buckets first (that kinda sucks). Yes it can be cleaned, and that helps the DPF a lot, but NO, most of the time, after cleaning it, will it last very long afterwards. It also costs you fuel and can leak coolant directly into your DPF as they go bad or fail. Not worth the risk of cleaning it if u ask me. The doser injector is also a money-maker for most of the dealers. They will almost always go straight for the DOC/DPF when you visit them, ignoring the injector because of the all-to-typical 'DOC/DPF Face-Pluged alarm' that is thrown by the engine, when there is little or nothing much wrong. The engine likes to throw this code waay too aesily, and many O/o's fall victim to it when they visit the repair shop, many times, repeatedly, before the actual, more minor problem is found.

To sum all this up,...

every 250-300k miles,...
Remove and clean the IMAP sensor, Intake manifold, Venturi pipe, Delta-P crossover tubes, Exh. backpressure sensor and feeder tube, and EGR temp. sensor.

Just replace the Delta-P sensor and After-Treatment injector. Then perform a DPF 'Forced Regen', ensuring the DPF is still below 3.0 hpa (it will almost always be below 2.0 hpa after a good cleaning by the regen with new after-treatment injector).

cost?,...$300-400 for after-treatment inj., $150-200 for Delta-P, 3 five-gallon buckets for holding your coolant, and a day of downtime, while drinking beer and getting very dirty. If you can change a spark plug for your car or lawn mower, then you are very likely capable of these things as well.

Gains?,...Better fuel mileage, less downtime, less problems, increased engine longevity more than outweighing the costs or headache of doing it.

Can a shop do this for you?,...well,...possibly for a few thousand bucks. Not worth taking it to them if u ask me.

Ignoring it,...Countless truck problems, downtime, and thousands uppon thousands in repair bills by the truck steeler(dealer) because they will blame the bigger ticket items either out of ignorance, or for extra profit. Most will laugh at you for mentioning simply cleaning these things instead of replacing them as well.


Maybe this helps someone out there who is already having issues,...Rawze.

 

Thank you Rawze! Far better(for me)to understand the issue(s) than just to write it off as a pos. Options for motors are running slim with both the emissions & the in house brand each mfg has to lock the truck into their service facility.

...& all of the above is exactly what I miss about this forum from just a few years ago. Man this industry has changed. There used to be many tech threads written by those who built/repaired their own stuff.