HHO Fuel Cells

[Acer12]

Originally Posted by violation_rollin

I don't know why you got the green color, but I too tried the Cream of tartar tip from Acer, and while it did work it wasn't as reactive as the Baking soda so I switched back to regain my production loss.

Any presence of a green/blue coloring; however, in any chemical reaction is an indication of the presence of copper. Are you using copper terminals? If so, then that would explain it.

Yeah, I'm thinking it's not the best electrolyzer, but, in experimention, you never know. It was just something someone suggested to me. If you don't clean all the stainless good with vinegar first, I know you'll have some crud build-up.

I'm wondering if you have any kind of pop-off valve on your bubbler or if you have a flashback arrestor hooked up?

I'm also surprised that you're getting that kind of mileage increase without any kind of EFIE hooked up for your O2 sensor.

But, that kind of mileage increase is awesome.

I'm actually working on a different version with my son-in-law. Maybe when we get it put together, I can post some video.

Thanks for the great info...

[violation_rollin]

Originally Posted by JMF2479

I don't think it will freeze. Has it froze up on you yet? Baking soda is like salt / sodium. It should be fine until a certain temperature.

Hey violation, is your water clear using baking soda?

Understanding salt concentrations, one would think that increased salt equals lower freezing points. However, I've noticed that when the water reaches 32 degrees the baking soda falls out of solution and the water begins to look like a "snow globe" with clumps of Soda floating around in colliod state. Once the soda falls out, then yes, the water freezes.

No. I've not had my cell freeze out on the road, idling during the cold surely plays a role here. Nevertheless, I don't want to have to replace a cracked water container should it occur.

Color: When using baking soda my water does take on a light hue of yellow. Of course, if you get an iron plume, then you will see a color of red/brown in your water.

[violation_rollin]

I'm wondering if you have any kind of pop-off valve on your bubbler or if you have a flashback arrestor hooked up?

I'm also surprised that you're getting that kind of mileage increase without any kind of EFIE hooked up for your O2 sensor.

But, that kind of mileage increase is awesome.

I'm actually working on a different version with my son-in-law. Maybe when we get it put together, I can post some video.

Thanks for the great info...[/quote]

Hey, experimentation is perhaps the best answer. Everyone's got their own angle on this, but many have similar approaches and that is the beauty of this thread. Shared info...

Yes I have a blow off plug on my bubbler. Set at 20 psi on the car, and set at 60 psi on the Semi. Furthermore, I do use an arrestor, built from SirHoax's design off of Utube. Moreover, I also incorporate an in-line vapor drier to prevent an moisture from being passed along after the bubbler. This has made the difference for me especially on long trips.

The drier sustains your early mileage without letting it drop off due to increased heat which carriers vapor forward and thus works against your mileage gains. It really cleans up your gas and yeilds a more stable form of HHO.

[violation_rollin]

+NNNN-

This would be a single cell running at roughly 2.4 volts.
This drops the voltage to between 2.2v - 2.4v per plate gap and seems to reach that "balance" with cells running comfortably for hours and hours.
Some say 2.4v seems a sweet spot.

The voltage range is then fine tuned by the gap distance between plates,
usually 1/16"-1/8"

and the concentration of your electrolyte.
1-1 1/2 tsp NaOH or KOH per gal.[/quote]

Golden, I've a question for you.

Been using this configuration and getting good results. However, I was thinking...How is this any different from a regular car battery being ran in reverse (being charged)? Furthermore, what is the potential for capacitance between the plates in the fuel cell given the use of baking soda as an electrolyte instead of H2SO4. Perhaps this is why you recommend a base for use as the electrolyte instead? Curious to know.

Violation

[goldenequity]

Hi Violation..... hope you had a good vacation...
Your 'simple' questions are really pretty complex in fact.. heh heh.
The answers touch on stuff ranging from understandings of electricity and electron 'theory' to electro-chemistry and oxidation/reduction potential of the metal elements and each element's eV values i.e. lead vs iron vs chrome etc..and you'd have to throw in a dash of quantum physics as well... protons, neutrons and arguments over electron orbits etc.... no thanks.
In general, the ability of lead.. as an element to offer itself, under conditions of charge and discharge to the electrolyte enables storage (or capacitance) of electron potential in the electrolyte itself. If the discharge is too deep... the anodes (which are ALSO cathodes depending on whether you're charging or discharging!) start to deteriorate and sacrafice resulting in 'sulfation' and a conductive precipitate (as a metallic salt) falls to the bottom of the cell.... too much of this and too much deep discharging too often results in build up of the precipitate eventually "touching" the plates and shorting them....dead battery. Under "balanced" eV conditions within the electrolyte (40%-70% discharge).... the lead, alternately as a cation, and then as an anionic complex, travels back and forth, plating and un-plating depending on current flow direction (charge vs discharge).

Think of the electrolyser as a cell under constant discharge. It constantly wants to oxidize at the anode... and the current is always only flowing in a single direction.... the cathode giving up electrons and the anode always absorbing.... in a battery this is not so ........the anode and cathode switch when current flows 'in' vs current flowing 'out'.

You therefore must deal with this predominant issue in electrolysis.... oxidation (at the anode) and reduction (at the cathode). It is in the exchanging of electrons from their orbits or shells that either releases elemental gases or forms ionic complexes or precipitates.

Suffice to say... in choosing electrolytes and electrodes you are trying to avoid unintended consequences.... like chlorine gas or hydrogen sulfide or carbon monoxide forming at the anode. Likewise, you want your "strength" to be in the metal electrode and not the chemical solution.... to retard the sacraficing of the anode.

H2SO4 introduces sulphur/sulfates to the mix and under the wrong conditions CAN produce hydrogen sulphide... a no-no. Baking soda contains the carbon molecule and under the wrong conditions (and other chemistry) can produce carbon dioxide and carbon monoxide.... however,
under normal conditions of electrolysis with simple Baking Soda as the electrolyte,.... carbon monoxide is NOT formed...contrary to popular belief on Utube.

KOH and NaOH are often used to introduce Sodium or Potassium as the metal cation for conductance (to lower the resistance of plain water), because the sole disassociation of OH/hydroxide into solution offers no other potential 'contamination' or unintended consequences to the chemistry just O and H.

One consequence of using SS electrodes is the creation of Cr(6) or hexavalent Chromium. It is unavoidable when using stainless steel no matter what electrolyte is used, acid or base. Cr(6) is NOT absorbed through the skin however and though toxic, is harmful only if ingested. So disposal of spent fluids should be treated as hazardous waste.
A good cell design consumes very little electrolyte (if any)..... only water.... which is the only thing that should need to be replenished.

[Freddy]

Significant KOH concentrations resist freezing down to 15 degrees. I haven’t had to clean plates or add electrolyte in months. It's caustic and makes your hands feel slimy when your handling it without gloves. Hasn't killed me yet. Only problem is the mechanical cummins isn't seeing any fuel mileage improvment

[goldenequity]

Hi Freddy,

What year is your Cummins?

[goldenequity]

The reason I ask, is if you aren't seeing any mpg benefits, the first thing to check (if your truck is 6/10 years old is the sensors.... if they're faulty they can richen your A/F ratios to the point where you have no gains.

The other thing is to do a re-set of your ecm/ecu.
By re-starting the learning curve of your computer from "fresh"... it can "learn" to read and accomodate HHO as a fuel supplement.... the process can take some systems up to a MONTH to create a "full" database.

Just a thought. We have seen good results from doing this.

[Freddy]

It's a 1996 mechanical 12 valve 5.9 Cummins. No sensors or ECM to modify. Doesn't even have glowplugs.

[violation_rollin]

Originally Posted by Freddy

Significant KOH concentrations resist freezing down to 15 degrees. I haven’t had to clean plates or add electrolyte in months. It's caustic and makes your hands feel slimy when your handling it without gloves. Hasn't killed me yet. Only problem is the mechanical cummins isn't seeing any fuel mileage improvment

Freddy, That slimy feeling is the actual fat lipids beens pulled from out of your skin. KOH is very caustic and absorbs fat and grease. This is why it makes for a great industrial cleaner. By the way, you might want to start using a good hand lotion. Also, baking soda can be use to neutralize the affects of the KOH if your hands start burning too much.