HHO Fuel Cells

[violation_rollin]

I hear a lot of talk, and a lot of criticism regarding the use of HHO gas in a diesel engine. What I want to know is...have any of you actually installed and logged substitive miles on your truck, or is everyone here just skeptics.

Sure there are obstacles to overcome with this technology, but with dedication and determination it is possible to work out the bugs. I've continued to work with my system on my truck now for over 40,000 miles and no it has not been easy, but yes a 20% fuel increase is achieveable. If anyone wants to share in their struggles and accomplishments I would greatly welcome the conversation.

If a man believes he can do something, then yes he can do it. If he believes that he cannot, then he cannot. Both are true. -Henry Ford-

[BrainHurtz]

Okay folks follow the money:

a) truck companies do not get money from oil companies. If they offered a truck with 20% better fuel economy it would be worth BILLIONS to them.
b) Basic economics also shows that as you increase fuel economy the number of people driving also increases, there is no reason oil companies would oppose a huge economy increase, because that simply allows opens up more consumption. Being able to overnight increase economy of trucks would save the economy and if it was possible you would find a huge wave of support from everybody. Its simply not possible.
c) The only people making posts on this subject for the device are brand new accounts with no history other than posts for a device that is designed simply to con people out of their hard earned cash.

[violation_rollin]

Hey Brain, I don't hear anyone hear trying to sell this technology. I'm only reaching out to like minded individuals who are trying to stay afloat in the trucking industry by applying their own methods to this.

Like I asked before are you just a critic, or are you actually out there doing something with this? I am. Anyone can talk a good talk, but I'm looking for results.

[goldenequity]

Greetings all...
Yes, I am new to the forum....
I ran across this news film on HHO installations in TT rigs.... Wisconsin.
No... I am NOT affiliated with the outfit selling these.
Yes, I went to their website to find out stuff.
Anyway.... just interested in the HHO thing and trying to separate wheat from chaff
Hope I can post the video ok.... this is my first post to the forum and admit I haven't read the rules.
Here goes:
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Nice!.... seemed to work.... I'll check back later for any followup!

[goldenequity]

Ok.... my 2nd post
This (without trying to come off like a physicist).... is what I found as to
why it works. I tried to avoid all the "jelly jar" people and hypesters and investigate the more serious efforts/people out there who are pushing the envelope with brute force electrolysis (h2 O2) production and integrating it into gas/diesel ICE's.

This comment is from a serious player in all of this named Zero Fossil Fuels:
Quote:

Here's the simple math I use to stuff it in the face of "the experts" when they say we're attempting to violate the "Laws" of conservation of energy. Please feel free to use it to stuff it to them too.

1) The best I.C.E. is 18% efficient, 20% on a good day.
2) The process of brute force electrolysys today has been pushed to about 85% Faraday.
Note: Based on the caloric energy available from burning Hydrogen, by using Faraday's "Law" to translate from electrical energy it is estimated that 100% efficient hydrogen electrolysis is achieved by creating somewhere between 5.5-7.5 milliliters of gas per minute per watt of energy consumed. Members of our research group have run the numbers several ways which all seem to point to around 7.0 m/m/w or mmw for short. Many of our cells have operated as high as 6mmw or roughly 85% efficient
3) The product of electrolysis is HHO which has it's own energy value, up to 85% of what we put in.

If all we considered was the return of energy value when we inject the HHO as a suppliment to gasoline, then yes; Conservation of energy applies.

HOWEVER!

HHO as an additive does more than return 80% of the energy we put in to create it. (read that to mean the ALTERNATOR)

It's properties enhance the slow burning gasoline, speeding up the rate of combustion, causing much more of the total combustion process to be translated into mechanical energy rather than being lost as waste heat out the tail pipe, raising the efficiency of the total system. Returning to the simple math...

4) Let's say we're able to translate just 10% more of the total system energy to mechanical energy. We have still not violated conservation of energy, only raised the total system efficiency to 28%. But that's an increase of 55%!!! Now deduct the energy loss of 15% to create the HHO that made this possible and you still end up with a total net gain of 40%!

This is not rocket science. It's simple math. And it works. The reality is some are getting even more, up to 35% mechanical efficiency, 94% gain, -15% to create the HHO, 79% total net gain. That's 54 MPG on a car that started out at 30. People are doing this. It is working. The move is on and there is no stopping it.

[goldenequity]

Here's an article that describes a "new" diesel emulsion fuel.... they are calling it EM-fuel.
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They are running this stuff in tanker ships, industrial plants.... and "lorries".

As you read through the article and dissect what it's REALLY saying about this new EMulsion Fuel.... guess what it is?

They electrolyse water in their "process" and "trap" the H2 and O2 as BUBBLES.... less than 0.1 microns in size... evenly disbursed throughout the "liquid". It appears as a "creamy white" liquid, an emulsion blended with a really fine FOAM of combustible gas.....
and that "gas"
is HHO.... (and YES.... hydrogen AND oxygen CAN be monotomic (harder to make) or diatomic (H2 02)..., so calling it HH0 is just easier use as a term... then plunging into all the scientific technicalities.

Next... I want to talk about the "slow burn" of fossil fuels.

[Hammer166]

Simple math?!?

You subtract the efficiency % of one system from the efficiency gain % of another?!?

That's simpleTON math!

Not to mention that the combustion efficiency is well above your number, which is actually low for an ICE's total efficiency.

[goldenequity]

Using your logic.... I have to compute the energy it takes to produce Propane in order to "justify" why it makes "sense" to inject it into diesel combustion!

All your "irrefutable" energy logic..... is IRRELEVANT!

Propane works.
HHO works.

You're standing there in 1904 shouting at people why "aerodynamically" man will never fly..... while the Wright Bros. fly past you!

[Hammer166]

I was merely pointing out that your math numbers were pulled out of thin air. Go read the SAE report all you guys point to prove it works. You'll find that to get anything other than modest, I.e. Single digit, gains requires serious modifications to the engines for extremely lean combustion, and hence, very efficient operation to work.

The other pitfall is that none of you ever remember to mention that even if you are improving combustion efficiency by 50%, you forget that 70% of that gain goes out the pipe or radiator, too.

[goldenequity]

OK... so you're done saying "man can't fly" ?

and now ....
your down to: "they'll never be able to fly very far...." and
"It ain't worth it.... not practical".....
and SAE says it's "almost" impossible to do anything very "useful" with such a contraption...." the gains will be "minimal"..... we recommend everybody stick with trains (besides we're owned by the railroad companies and they don't want us promotin' no aeroplanes!)

What's next..... "they're DANGEROUS" or "you'll never get me in one of those!"

even if you are improving combustion efficiency by 50%, you forget that 70% of that gain goes out the pipe or radiator, too.

That's so screwed up and such DISINFORMATION.... I hardly know where to start....

Well here's a novel thought for the rest.....(and answers your disinformation as well)

The burn rate of hydrogen is 10.... TEN times faster than any fossil fuel.

hydrogen (burn rate: 325-265 cm/sec)
fossil fuels (burn rates: 45-35 cm/sec)

That's like walking at 10mph and being passed by a car doing 100mph!

It ACCELERATES the combustion of diesel/air.... so it's already DONE before the exhaust valve even opens (compared to fossil fuel alone)
It therefore is able to COMPLETE the normally slow combustion of diesel .... you get the full mechanical benefit of a completed combustion during the power stroke.
After it combusts.... it turns BACK into water and COOLS off your exhaust (and cylinders). The measured EGT is at least 50F cooler with HHO/Diesel (and yes, I know the more you lean diesel a/f ratio the cooler it gets..... but EVEN in a lean a/f gasoline engine which SHOULD get hotter.... the same EGT reduction happens using HHO.... so your "magic steam" comment earlier in this thread is disinformation as well.)

When you "explode" more/all of your available fuel.... you get more expansion, more concussive force.... as well as "steam" pressure against your piston and that's MECHANICAL energy..... and your "cooling" happens AFTER the release of that energy.....

(so much for the "70% of that gain goes out your pipes and radiator"....... suggesting that you're losing all the MECHANICAL energy you "gain" through some kind of "heat loss"....... you couldn't be MORE upside down in what you THINK you know.... it's faster, more expansive AND then cooler... so NOTHING is coming out yer tail pipe except a LOT less SOOT and plain old water.
..... and as far as the radiator thing.... I don't know WHAT the hell yer talkin about...BUT IT DOESN'T APPLY to cooler combustion.... that's fer sure!

This is a powerful and peculiar gas folks..... not completely understood... but useful nevertheless.
It acts like "plasma" in some situations... "adopting" the MELT TEMPERATURE of the material it's exposed to....
but you can grab the torch tip with your fingers and not get burned. Weird.

The reason I post this video is at 7:08 on the film.... the combusted gas turns BACK to water..... and that has everything to do with how and why it works so well in an ICE.

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