HHO Fuel Cells

[violation_rollin]

Originally Posted by goldenequity

A comment on your experiences by a good friend and engineer I work with,

"The issue as to why it changes on his truck in particular is most likely his maf/map sensor. The sensor reads the density of the air.... When humid, the air is denser which equates to the sensor adding more fuel. Why the marked difference??? The answer lies in the truck itself. Most likely the sensor needs to be replaced, it sounds to me like it has been contaminated at some point or has gone out of spec at some point. To continue with his claim without ECM data is misleading at best, regardless of intent.

I do not believe that the humidity has "anything" to do with the reduced mileage."

I tend to agree with him and think it to be a good idea to run some simple diagnostics on your ECM and check for error codes or simply swap out the MAF to be on the safe side.
Cheers!

Very good observation. This is exactly what we are doing in the shop to the other truck. Currently we have two trucks running HHO, and that was the very issue being discussed last week. For now we are leaving my truck alone as a control model. Once the data comes back from the other truck we'll adjust accordingly.

[violation_rollin]

Golden,

I pondered the use of Nuetral plates last night (couldn't sleep). Currently I run 5 alternating Negative and Positive plates. 3 Neg and 2 Pos. I've seen how the center Negative plate gets pounded by the two Positive plates whereas the remaining two outside negative plates are not as affected.

Therefore, I rebuilt another cell to run with the center plate being neutral. In this set up I now have one neg, one positive, then the neutral, followed by one positive and one neg. Also I'm running the tartaric acid as suggested by Acer as my electrolyte.

It appears to look good on the bench, we'll see how it does out on the road. Heading to North Carolina Tonight.

Thanks,

Violation, P.S. The HCL did give me a headache and nausea, I should have known better....LOL

[goldenequity]

Violation,

What you just did will help you control amps and heat.
Before, you had -|+|-|+|-
that is considered a "single" cell running 12V.

Now, by running -|+|0|+|-
you have split your voltage
and are now running 2 cells at 6V each

You can now run a stronger electrolyte and maintain
your cell temperature better at a more stable peak HHO output.

nice.

question:
What is the temperature stable, operational LPM, (liters per minute) that your cell(s) put out?
(not maximum capable, but "normal" output in lpm to your rig as you drive)

[goldenequity]

The # of neutrals are used to further drop the voltage of the "cells".

This is a configuration that many have found to give a happy balance
between Heat (amperage) and HHO output:

+NNNN-

This would be a single cell running at roughly 2.4 volts.
This drops the voltage to between 2.2v - 2.4v per plate gap and seems to reach that "balance" with cells running comfortably for hours and hours.
Some say 2.4v seems a sweet spot.

The voltage range is then fine tuned by the gap distance between plates,
usually 1/16"-1/8"

and the concentration of your electrolyte.
1-1 1/2 tsp NaOH or KOH per gal.

This of course is a poor man's power controller,
as opposed to using a voltage regulated, current limiting (duty cycle) PWM, which frees you from using the electrolyte strength to control amps.

Questions:
What is your average LPM output from your cell(s) for your mpg gains?
and
How are you handling freezing?
cheers!

[violation_rollin]

OK, first of all...

You're a pretty sharp cookie...Oh and thanks. Just ran an 1800 mile run and produced virtually no visible iron plume.

The use of nuetral plates takes this to an entirely different direction then I was playing with before. Prior I had ran seperate cells (all 12volt) in series and in parallel, but had never considered the voltage drop across a single cell by cutting the voltage within the cell with the neutral plates. It totally makes sense now. You've opened my eyes.

I've not used Sodium Hydroxide or Potassium Hydroxide, yet, as an electrolyte. The tartaric acid tip from Acer worked, but did not produce enough quantity to keep up. NaOH would probably be best between the two. Which have you tried?

I've never actually measured the LPM output. I simply watch the production flow through the in-line drier, and count the bubbles per second. Based on my cell size I have a premeasured amount of baking soda that produces the amount of HHO that works for me. Highly Scientific....LOL.

[violation_rollin]

Plate spacing: In an earlier design I had my plates at 1/8 inch apart and ended up welding plates together and make heep big fire...NOT Good. The bubbler melted down.

Currently I've maintained a spacing of 5/8 of an inch apart. This spacing helped reduce heat, but it has always been at 12volt. I can see now how a closer plate spacing can be achieved with neutral plates.

My first design/attempt at this was a closed loop induction system, 1/8 inch apart, and pulled 40amps. It made serious HHO and got serious hot. I may have to go back to this design and rethink it.

[violation_rollin]

Questions:
What is your average LPM output from your cell(s) for your mpg gains?
and
How are you handling freezing?
cheers![/quote]

As for MPG: We've discovered that the other truck did have a frayed wire which was grounding out the ECM. This was causing the earlier problem we discussed. Now fixed and are awaiting mileage results. As for my truck, ECM are fine. MAF sensor however was not. My mileage has returned to earlier numbers with humidity now not affecting results(loaded miles up from 5.7mpg to 7.2 and empty miles from 6.8mpg to 8.3mpg). Again thanks.

As for freezing: Haven't crossed that bridge yet. Thinking Isopropyl alcohol as a simple fix, but need to play with Propylene Glycol and Ethylene Glycol too. Don't know how they will play under electrolysis. Do you have suggestions, or are you picking my brain?

[goldenequity]

EthyleneGlycol and PropyleneGlycol do not work (imo) for electrolyte.
Across time (not long) they continue to turn darker and darker and give off
a "sweet" smell..... almost like carmelizing a sugar syrup. I believe the electrolysis changes the chemistry right down to the molecular level and this can't be good.

Alcohols will work but....
the problem is vaporization. The vaporization rate of alcohol is really high... much higher than water.... the reason it feels "cold" when you put it on your skin and blow on it.

Compound an already high vapor rate with the fact that you are encouraging its evaporation with the cell heat and then bubbling HHO gas through it....... and you rid yourself of the alcohol content very quickly and are left again with water.
Whatever freeze point you were able to achieve by its addition, is constantly and rapidly reverting back to 32F as your concentration weakens.

I'm still wondering how much gas you're putting out as you drive.
If you can calculate how much plate area is under electrolysis and how many amps you draw on average, I might come up with a fairly good guess. I'm impressed with your numbers and the fact that you're not messing with your ECM and leaning your A/F.... that is great!

I'm exploring the idea of whether or not there exists a critical threshhold of "too little" vs. "too much" hho gas to the diesel.
Too little may not trigger the desired combustion you want for mpg gains....
Too much may trigger (via the MAF) the ECM to correct and richen thereby losing the potential gains.

Simple is best and I like the idea that you are getting your benefits with a simple design that's proving itself.

Cheers!

[violation_rollin]

Currently running the series/parallel circuit of +NNN- in a single generator. Working good, just took it to New Jersey and back 1500 miles. Got 8.7mpg before I had to idle the truck over night (it got cold). Ended the trip right at 8.0. But Dead headed back to Indiana.

Thought alot about the freezing question: Wasn't going to use Ethyl or Propyl for electrolyte but rather for antifreeze. However, your earlier points are well taking. I figured that if I leave my plate spacing at a farther distance apart, then the required extra baking soda needed due to the use of nuetral plates for the same production rate would actually work to lower the freezing point too. Increased electrolyte/increased salt concentration/thus equals a lower freezing point. You had mentioned plate spacing of 1/8 inch, but I've left mine at the original 5/8 inch apart and noticed that I needed 2 1/2 more times the baking soda then before the neutral plates.

[violation_rollin]

Hey guys I'm leaving out on vacation until next week. Going fishing in Missouri. Have fuel cell on family car 2002 Camry. Will post again when I get back.