HHO Fuel Cells

[BrainHurtz]

I think most of you are forgetting that a huge part of combustion is steam. Diesel is of course made of hydrocarbons. That means for every carbon atom in diesel you have something close to twice as many hydrogen atoms. That means for complete combustion of the carbon you'll ended up with twice as much steam as you do carbon dioxide (in moles of course). In fact there is so much steam in exhaust you'd probably never have to fill up the water tank of a 6 cycle vehicle if you ran a condenser.

As for catalytic converters... a bit of added steam shouldn't be a hard problem to overcome.

There are a lot of challenges in the lubrication and contamination side of things to think about though...

[Hammer166]

BrainHurtz, couple of important corrections:

You're forgetting that water has 2 hydrogen atoms. Most of the components of fuel have the formula CnH(2n+2). I looked up the avg. It's C12H23. So, in pure oxygen to simplify things:
4 C12H23 + 71 O2 = 48 CO2 + 46 H2O

Water and CO2 in near equal portions


The other thing is that you're forgetting that combustion is a chemical process that releases heat and vaporization is a physical process that absorbs heat. A lot of heat! The two events have vastly different pressure and temperature vs time curves. the fact that water is part of both processes does make them similar.

[BobC]

HHO in a big truck is an interesting thought.
I doubt very much the claims of 50% more power or less fuel.
You would need a tremendous source of HHO to replace the fossil fuel.

There would be an upper limit to the amount of HHO that can be used in conjuction with diesel.
Above that limit you'd need to change the valve timing considerably.
HHO has a very fast moving flamefront compared to gas & diesel.

Also, burning HHO actually absorbs heat thru steam generation thus cooling the pistons & cylinders.

If there's an oxygen sensor in the exhaust, you'll need to trick it.
It will see the HHO/fuel mixture as running lean.
That probably only applies to gas engines but I don't know if diesels have resorted to O2 sensors yet.

I suspect a certain amount of HHO would offer a small but perceptible increase in mileage for a diesel.
If you could supply a moderate but useful amount, I suspect a couple mpg gain.

Gas vehicles are reporting upwards of a few mpg boosts.
An example for gas would be a gain of 3-5 mpg for engines normally seeing 18 or so.

Gas engine experimentors are using in the neighborhood of a couple liters per hour.
Generating a liter or two per hour of HHO is not hard nor taxing on the electrical system.
A couple liters an hour can be had using around 10-15 amps at 12vdc.
This requires a catalyst in the water to make it conductive.
I forget the most commonly used powder.
It's along the lines of baking soda.
I can find out exactly if anyone cares.
You only need about a tablespoon's worth.

Water lasts about a month or so depending on usage/miles.

Most experimentors are using SS for both their electrodes.
316 SS is about the best for longevity.
Rarely needs replaced or cleaned.

Loads of sites on the web & plenty of utube shorts showing various methodology & results.
No one seems to have perfected a best case design for any part of the HHO gens.

One or two experimentors have claimed a low current HHO source that can power a small engine using only distilled water; no fossil fuel.

Of the one or two, no one has been able to reproduce their results despite reviewing the US patents available for those devices.

The original designers are either dead or incommunicado.
Stanley Meyer from Ohio was one & he is gone.
His patented designs are available for viewing from the US patent office online.

Even I am tempted to experiment but can't for lack of a decent place to build & test the contraptions.

[Hammer166]

The information from any of the HHO websites should be treated has highly susceptible.

Quote: Also, burning HHO actually absorbs heat thru steam generation thus cooling the pistons & cylinders.

Besides the fact that HHO is non-existant, why would steam produced by hydrogen combustion cool the engine when steam produced by hydrocarbon combustion does not? Is it special steam? Oh yeah, it's special, it came from HHO!

If it were only so easy to increase mileage this way, every engine on the planet would come factory with these systems. The efficiency issues with internal combustion engines are not combustion efficiency issues. Thermal efficiency is the problem. Too much energy goes out the pipe or the radiator. We discussed this on another thread in here just a while back. I'd post a link but it's too much of a pain to do on Crack.

[Freddy]

Biggest reason why OEM's aren’t doing HHO...It's not in their best interests for used trucks to get improvements in fuel mileage while their new trucks sit in the lot
Second biggest reason is...oh wait...They are doing it...Ford, GM, Honda, Toyota all have hydrogen "fuel cell" programs which aim to be completely independent from any hydrocarbon based fuel. They aren’t interested in some kind of diesel/hydrogen hybrid and if they were by the time they developed the tooling to make em, and assume liability for em,(because when you get an electrical short they explode) warranty, and train service techs to fix them, (they need serviced frequently) they would be in the red for the 10-15 percent gain you get.

The "combustion" of HHO is actually a net exothermic reaction meaning is gives off heat

[Hammer166]

Uhh, Freddy?

A hydrogen fuel cell is the exact opposite of the magic genie HHO bottle. Hydrogen and oxygen go in electricity comes out!

There's nothing to the magic bottle! Two electrodes and tube to your intake. Think about that on a diesel. Something as volitile as hydrogen hanging out in your cylinders. Do ya think it'll last til the injection event? Kind of doubt it. A trained ape could change electrodes, these are that simple.

Go search the scientific literature available online. You'll not find any reputable sources for HHO. There's hydrogenating fuel, but that's a different animal. But it doesn't matter, enough people will buy this garbage and make a few people rich. Kinda like that magic pipe nipple, the Vada turbo 3000d. 60 day money back guarantee, but it'll take 60 to 90 to see results. And if ain't working it's installed wrong. And it's a piece of pipe with fittings. And some drivers swear they work (proof that denial ain't just a river...)

[Freddy]

It is a shame that these devices are simple enough to be made and sold by guys working in their basement of whom don't know how they work but instead follow a MS paint diagram from some website that was made by some other guy that works out of his basement.
What happens next is they go to home depot buy some 304 SS wall plates shove it in a PVC pipe and try to sell it for 800 dollars.
Then they say it will give you 1000 percent better economy make up some BS explanation of how it works (of which are always very entertaining) and when the "bottle" does little else but make steam at best (because its overheated in 10 minutes) people call it nothing but a scam and a skeptic such as yourself is born. It's a tragic thing.

As for reputable research?...Try the Society of Automotive Engineers. or what’s stamped all over your truck (SAE). They have known about this since 1975

[Hammer166]

Looked at the SAE stuff first:
While one paper mentions electrolysis (sp) has a possible source of H2, the research quoted by the HHO crowd was done with reformers. These devices use high temperatures to generate hydrogen from hydrocarbon (and are used for most industrial hydrogen production) in much higher quantities than any 12V cracker could ever dream of.

And let's get this straight, right now: HHO DOES NOT EXIST!!! These units release H2 and O2 gas in a 2:1 ratio(and some water vapor).

Now, As to how it works, hydrogen enrichment of the fuel charge allows the engine to be modified to allow much leaner ignition. So at low power settings the throttle can be opened further to lower parasitic losses to intake vacuum. Operating far leaner than perfect (14.7 : 1) also drops combustion temperature significantly enough that NOx emissions drop dramatically. And it's not some magic HHO property that lets the engine run cooler, it's the mixture being so lean. To get the 40% mpg improvement so often claimed required significant rework of the heads and valvetrain to generate more tumble and mixing in the intake charge to get the maximum benefit of hydrogen's volatility and rapid flame front. The fuel maps were recalibrated as well.

The claim of rapid burning causing an power spike because of a longer power stroke? Well, first off, lean mixtures generate less torque than a stoiciometric (sp)mixture. Also, a piston can generate maximum crankshaft torque when cylinder pressure peaks near 90 ATDC, when the rod has the longest lever to the crank. So some gains with earlier pressure are there, but not the huge percentage claims on the snake oil sites.

Didn't see much (other than snake oil) on diesels, but since they operate in lean combustion all the time anyways, don't see the same benefit as in gas engines. Besides, as I pointed out before, the temps generated on compression in a diesel would ignite the hydrogen before the injection stroke anyways. Suppose there's a benefit there of increased intake temperature at injection.

The common thread I noticed amongst the claims of the HHO crowd was that they used just enough real data that their claims seemed more realistic. The old adage that the best lie has it's roots in the truth is dead on. Also noted was that most every thread critical of HHO would have either a HHO seller or a one hit wonder jump in and start listing all these 'references' which rarely, if ever, had links and often contained info that , if one read and understood them, disputed the very claim they supposedly backed up! And all I could figure for reasons on the crazy claims was to justify the ridiculous amount they charged for $20 of metal and wire!

I also noticed a similarity between HHOers and the Global Warming (oh, I'm sorry! Climate Change) crowd. Evidence doesn't matter. Either you believe or you're a heathen. Reason seems in short supply among both groups.

[Freddy]

Since 95% of the "information" about hydrogen doping in an ICE is spam from the aforementioned experimenters most whom have little or no education in electrochemical engineering or in this case general chemistry. Because of this the general public now knows this technology by the misleading catch phrase "HHO". In a way you are right that HHO does not exist. After the ionization phase H atoms will not maintain a high enough energy level at ambient temperature to remain monatomic. The hydrogen atom's single valiance electron has no stability and will bond with another hydrogen and the H-H molecule (2H) is what you end up getting every time in low temperature electrolyzers.

Speaking of low temperature hydrogen electrolyzers...the only thing they have in common with reformers is hydrogen production. That’s it. They produce no Oxygen what so ever which just so happens to be a huge part of both the exothermic reaction of the hydrogen and oxygen and the combustion of the hydrocarbon fuel of your choice. Sure, oxygen is normally in the intake air charge but ECMs and carburetors alike are already adjusted for that stoichiometry. In the case of Diesel engines which have no oxygen sensor, the camshaft/crankshaft positioning sensor or in some gensets oil pressure governs engine timing and automatically leans out when RPM or oil pressure begins to spike due to the added hydrogen/oxygen fuel. Also keep in mind that these engines are not designed for pure hydrogen and just as you say...would need to be heavily modified if the air charge saturation were high enough. But that’s not the goal here. There is a point where excessive hydrogen doping in an ICE not designed for it will cause problems with the upper cylinder and head. Given that small but properly engineered 12 volt "crackers" can yield enough hydrogen/oxygen mix to get the beneficial effects on combustion without having to worry about the prospect of using something like a reformer to produce much higher yields. Although interestingly enough some real scientists are trying to run an EGR into a reformer to make the hydrogen. That one will be interesting to follow. But anyone toting excessive fuel mileage/torque gains are simply lying and discrediting the technology.

Getting hydrogen to ignite due to compression ignition is possible but diesel fuel does so much more readily. What ends up happening is the diesel ignites before the hydrogen has a chance.


...I agree with your assessment of the HHO crowd and the greenies most of them make allot of noise but any reasonable person can clearly see they don't know what their talking about.

[Ronnocomot]

If these things actually worked, wouldn't engine manufacturers offer them?

None do, so make your own conclusion.