Compressed air car far as 1000 miles at up to 96 mph with each tiny fill-up

[Moses]

Tell you what: You show up in an aircar that works like they claim this one does, and I'll eat my boots.

[MO family man]

Originally Posted by Moses

Tell you what: You show up in an aircar that works like they claim this one does, and I'll eat my boots.

That seems like a waste of good boots. I did appreciate the running debate you guys had. Where as I do not claim to live in y'alls realm of geekdom it was informative none the less.

[MO family man]

Also I for one hope some fine scientist can make this work. Seems to me that chasing more efficient use of gas/diesel is just delaying an inevitable problem.

[Hammer166]

Kinda lost track of this thread after my first read, guess I'll join Moses in banging my head!

1. 4500 PSI will do the same work on release from any size rupture. Faster release = harder, shorter duration. Slower release would give long steady push. If you really think a full rapid dump will have no effect you (and your compressed spine) are in for a surprise.

2. Gasoline rarely explodes in accidents upon impact. If there is an explosion it is after things have burned a while and managed to superheat the tank. Hollywood does not represent reality here!

3. While many new technologies were said to be unworkable, they were not proved so. Perpetual motion, on the other hand is a proven impossibility. There is no way to get more energy out of a system than you put in. Period. Every calorie of heat represents an inefficiency , energy lost. You can't use the cars momentum to pump the air in faster than you're using it. Compressing air generates heat, thus energy is lost. Physics doesn't always work the way you 'think' it should.

4. Where that 2 - 3 dollar fillup comes from I'd like to know. Just the heat rejection apparatus to deal with 4500 PSI (about 300 times atmospheric pressure, BTW) would cost more than a couple bucks a tank! A diesel engine, let's say 20:1 compression for an even number, 45 lbs boost (4 atmospheres, about) gives a pressure of 80 atmospheres or 1200 psi, roughly, just before injection. And there's enough heat to ignite the fuel almost instantaneously. And you're talking 4 time higher pressure?!? Think about that.

5. Many of these new ideas rely on our friend electricity. California, which tends to lead the pack on mandating new ideas. They can't keep the lights on now. And you're going switch the cars to using electricity? Roflmao! And the prospect of new generation facilities? Not good.

So, if we had a cheap low energy content source of compressed air, air cars would be great. Some definite issues, but do able. But, as pointed out many times, by a great number of great scientists, the devil is in the details! They way things stand now, air cars are just another way to shift pollution to somebody elses backyard. Because that electricity ain't just hanging out in the wires waiting to be used!

[MO family man]

I read the article again and the guy says he plans to have these things out in 09 or10. I will wait patiently to see what he's got and while I wait I will wish him the best.

[Truckerjo]

1. 4500 PSI will do the same work on release from any size rupture. Faster release = harder, shorter duration. Slower release would give long steady push. If you really think a full rapid dump will have no effect you (and your compressed spine) are in for a surprise.

In the sense of of propulsion I would disagree.. look at it this way, you have a garden hose and you turn the water on and have a nice flow of water, then you take your finger and close of half the end of the hose and the water starts shooting father out as well creating more impact on what ever you are spraying it on.. No difference with air.....

3. While many new technologies were said to be unworkable, they were not proved so. Perpetual motion, on the other hand is a proven impossibility. There is no way to get more energy out of a system than you put in. Period. Every calorie of heat represents an inefficiency , energy lost. You can't use the cars momentum to pump the air in faster than you're using it. Compressing air generates heat, thus energy is lost. Physics doesn't always work the way you 'think' it should.

LOL physics and its unbreakable boundaries... Now everything we have is based on physics and theories.. The fact is that physics and laws have been rewritten with new discoveries, so everything is subjected to the possibility of change..

Looking at our own solar system physics can't explain many things.. Proven? Our universe is filled with unexplainable events that our physics can't explain, proven?


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A step in the right direction perhaps????

4. Where that 2 - 3 dollar fillup comes from I'd like to know. Just the heat rejection apparatus to deal with 4500 PSI (about 300 times atmospheric pressure, BTW) would cost more than a couple bucks a tank! A diesel engine, let's say 20:1 compression for an even number, 45 lbs boost (4 atmospheres, about) gives a pressure of 80 atmospheres or 1200 psi, roughly, just before injection. And there's enough heat to ignite the fuel almost instantaneously. And you're talking 4 time higher pressure?!? Think about that.

Guess we will have to wait and see.. But a diesel engine has glow plugs to create heat...

5. Many of these new ideas rely on our friend electricity. California, which tends to lead the pack on mandating new ideas. They can't keep the lights on now. And you're going switch the cars to using electricity? Roflmao! And the prospect of new generation facilities? Not good.

I agree with you about cali and their crazy mandates (and people, not all I think Ron may escape that crazy list lol) Well there has been many things going threw legislation to increase electricity output, such as the bill that allows several Nuclear plants to be built (not saying that any better but its electricity) and some more proposal in water generated electricity..

So, if we had a cheap low energy content source of compressed air, air cars would be great. Some definite issues, but do able. But, as pointed out many times, by a great number of great scientists, the devil is in the details! They way things stand now, air cars are just another way to shift pollution to somebody else's backyard. Because that electricity ain't just hanging out in the wires waiting to be used!

Well not sure exactly what you meant by "devil is in the details", because there are always hurdles to jump with any new technology.. (now I know it not a "new technology" but new as in the way they plan on using it with the new technologies)

How is this just another way to push more pollution into other peoples back yards? America still gets 50% of its power from coal plants that are right here in America then 25% from nuclear and the rest is from hydro and from Canada and Mexico... I see no pushing since America has 1/4 of the worlds coal in its ground.. If anything it is going to be our back yard....

Energy not hanging out in the wires ready to use? well yes and no ( a man named Tesla "proved" that...)

[Hammer166]

First off, I'm on my crack and hadn't taken the time to figure out how to get the quotes to work, so none here.

Your garden hose is not analogous to a pressure dump. Friction and momentum, not pressure, dominate that scenario. Go to your local firehouse, open the valve on a 1" line then do the same on a 2" with the same pressure. You had better be paying attention when you do!

Let's see... Most modern truck diesels have no glow plugs! And engines that do gave them use them only as a starting aid. By definition a diesel engine is a COMPRESSION ignition engine not a glow plug ignition engine.

Perpetual motion? I'm not wasting my time arguing Coast to Coast bs!

Nimby is a state to state issue. Everyone wants more generating capacity (well, let's leave the wackos out of this) but no one wants it in their state. Barring a major philosophical shift, you'll not see a new nuke in California in our lifetimes. And they're only going to draw a larger and larger % of total power. And hydro? Do you really think there will ever be another major dam constructed in this country? It's funny that coal is dominating our power generation when more nuclear material has been released through it's use than you could possibly imagine. When you're burning tons per day a any one plant, trace amounts start to add up.

And in this instance (air cars) the devil isn't in technological hurdles. Packaging a large enough pressure vessel to give useful range. The structural integrity of said high-pressure vessel. Efficiently compressing, storing, and transferring high pressure air. Don't forget lubrication of the air motors, which gets dumped in the exhaust.

And Newtonian physics has not changed in centuries, it's quantum physics which is in a state of flux. But I'm sure that hyper-dimensional physics will come in and save the day!

Note to self: bang head here, bang head here.

P.S. Moses, your boots are safe!

[Truckerjo]

As for the Newton:
A lot of the triumphs&predictions in QM are based upon using mathematical procedures where some terms are neglected or simplified.
Does that make QM wrong?

You can say that Newton's laws are simplifications (and hence, in a strict sense wrong).

When you get down to molecular sizes, you can no longer use the rules of Newtonian/Classical Mechanics to calculate behaviors. You need the new rules of QM. (and hence, in a strict sense Newton's laws are wrong).

Ever heard of the Brownian Rachet ?

I guess you can never convince some people the earth is not flat........

[Hammer166]

Um... You might try actually reading about something you cut and paste in...

The Brownian ratchet is a thought experiment about an apparent perpetual motion machine conceived by Richard Feynman in a physics lecture at the California Institute of Technology on May 11, 1962 as an illustration of the laws of thermodynamics. The simple machine, consisting of a paddlewheel and a ratchet, appears to be an example of a Maxwell's demon, able to extract useful work from random fluctuations in a system at thermal equilibrium. Feynmann's detailed analysis showed why it cannot actually do this.

That was pulled from here: [LINK POSTED BY MEMBER] Only Members Can View This Truck Forum Link.

And it has nothing to do with air cars!

And Newton's simplifications can be experimentally verified many decimal places out. But I'm done arguing facts and proven theories when they are disregarded becauce you don't think that's how it works.

I'll just slip on my tinfoil hat and go back to looking for the edge of the earth! To paraphrase Mork, "wow! Rational thinking, what a concept!"

P.S. The boots are still safe.

[Truckerjo]

Originally Posted by Hammer166

Um... You might try actually reading about something you cut and paste in...

The Brownian ratchet is a thought experiment about an apparent perpetual motion machine conceived by Richard Feynman in a physics lecture at the California Institute of Technology on May 11, 1962 as an illustration of the laws of thermodynamics. The simple machine, consisting of a paddlewheel and a ratchet, appears to be an example of a Maxwell's demon, able to extract useful work from random fluctuations in a system at thermal equilibrium. Feynmann's detailed analysis showed why it cannot actually do this.

That was pulled from here: [LINK POSTED BY MEMBER] Only Members Can View This Truck Forum Link.

And it has nothing to do with air cars!

And Newton's simplifications can be experimentally verified many decimal places out. But I'm done arguing facts and proven theories when they are disregarded becauce you don't think that's how it works.

I'll just slip on my tinfoil hat and go back to looking for the edge of the earth! To paraphrase Mork, "wow! Rational thinking, what a concept!"

P.S. The boots are still safe.

Nice try to make yourself seem superior... I did not cut and paste and I didn't Pull from there.. The fact is you said that a "Perpetual motion, on the other hand is a proven impossibility" not relating "just to air cars" but to all possibilities.. Brownian Ratchet subject was something I learned in school so lol ya go ahead and try to say I pulled it.... I have showed you several arguments to your claims and you have dodged them all, with fancy wording, and disqualifying them because they are not "well known scientist" hoping people will not be able to see threw it... The fact is Quantum Physics has loopholes that shows a perpetual motion machine may be possible... Sorry you are so closed minded... By the way newtons laws do not work down to molecular sizes, so your many decimals comment does not say otherwise..

Again I am sorry you can't seem to think beyond Newton's laws and find that it is not 100% accurate..

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