The only hate I see always comes from the other side of the arguement. The democratic party is a GOP also. Liberal ideals have merit and once debated against Conservitive Ideals, happy medium can be found. Yet, lately, liberals can't seem to talk about ONE issue without bashing someone (Bush, Rumsfield.) or a group of someones (Republicans, Conservitives, Neocons). Often this revolves around lableing said people or persons and never is there any constructive ideas to fix problems. Stop telling me whats wrong with my guys without first telling me what your guy is going to do about the problem. That offers up some real debate, like "well what happens when this happens then?" Kinda debate. Instead of fumming hate, tell me why I should accept your liberal ideals or at least be open-minded (you liberals love that word) to meet in the middle. Another word, have compassion for other people and there ideas. You dont have to be Christian to have moral.

NOW here is a great debatful post! No hate. We can still disagree, but look mom, no hate!

I would disagree that they are a destabilizing force in the region. What is the basis of the statement, the fact they are a free democratic society? What is the crime?

As for nukes.... Now that is the question of the ages. As long as they (and we) have the nuke, it protects just by having it. But I as a Conservative even see the hypocrisy. It is a major issue in the world. No easy way to get rid of them if even one country has them, but can't allow more powers (especially unstable governments with dictators or tribal policy) to gain them. That is a question that has not been able to be answered since Hiroshima.

I think you may have posted to the wrong thread.
what makes you think I'm a "Liberal"? I've just made one of the most conservative posts on this thread. Isn't your poor knee getting kinda sore from all the jerking it does?
rx

Although I quoted your statement, it was not a directed statement, it was an overall view of debate in recent history. On and off this forum. When debating about spending.... Bush sucked. When debating about foreign policy... Bush lied. When discussing allegiance with Isreal... Evil Zionist Neocons. It just gets old. Surly you can see these are the basis of debate lately. I just asking for something with more flavor, thats all. Most of these liberals would be surprised to see how much of a centrist I am on some issues. I am not a republican far righty. Before some of you spew out another BUSH SUCKs post, it might surprise you that the majority of us are disappointed in Bush! Hell, you glorify the polls that say it everyday. That does not mean we give up our Conservative values. I am what I consider myself, an Independent thinker thats Conservative Leaning. But no, I can see you are an independent thinker with the few posts I have seen of yours.

I would disagree that they are a destabilizing force in the region. What is the basis of the statement, the fact they are a free democratic society? What is the crime?
Yes, they are a free and Democratic society; unless you happen to be an indigenous Palestinian trying to live there, or in the West Bank.

ttp://www.serendipity.li/zionism.htm

rx

It is just not fair to context the palistinian movement in Israel as you do. And to label them as indigenous is a debate many centuries old. In the end, they most BOTH find a way to coexist in this world. That may or may not be within the borders of Israel. Although it is not politically correct to say they should relocate to a country that lives by there political and cultural belief system like Serya, Iran, Jordan, Cyprus, or Egypt (to name a few), but ironically no one cried foul when 1000s of Israelis were forced removed from entire villages and towns in an agreement for the Palestinians. Weeks later the suicide bombings continued and again, the Israelis were shown as the aggressors after protecting themselves once again.

This is not a simple problem until both parties at the table are serious and faithful to the agreements made at the table. The biggest failure to the Palestinians, is there trust in the leadership of Humas, a terrorist organization. Only after the status quo has changed will there be peace there. That does not change the fact that Israel IS a stable government in the region. You still have not given any reasons that they are destabilizing. Egypt attacked them. Not the other way around. They were attacked in the 6 day war, not the other way around. Most recently, radical elements in Lebanon attacked them. Again, like defending themselves against Hamas, they, the victims are labeled the aggressors.

Many strange statements being made here, all with a 'you people' flavor...

Before Bush took office and we adopted the NeoConservative (that is a descriptive phrase by the way, not hate) policy was implemented (after 9/11) we had treaties in place and we were in the process of dismantling the nukes and ramping everything down. I had hope that nukes and huge arsenals were a thing of the past...I still have to wonder how it was, is, or otherwise why isn't such a noise being made about the nukes Israel has, how they got them, why they were allowed to have them...

Israel doesn't follow the rules like your supposed to..they feel they are entitled to first strike etc. like we did with Iraq..it's a neoconservative policy...they act outside the law...over and over...yet we send them millions of dollars and give military support...I know all the arguments but I find them (the arguments) bogus.

I got interested in this situation (the real Israel) when I started hearing lots of noise about Jimmy Carter being an anti-semite...off all people...I started looking around and boy did I find a lot of information that is contrary to the 'accepted' story...Israel is aggressive..yet they play that they are the victim...not all Jews are happy with these neoconservative far right wing policies either.

There have been times, (the 80's) that Iran and Israel worked together, Israel funneling arms to Iran...during Reagan's presidency...from day one the region has been under seige...from Israeli greed...they did everything to snatch Palestinian villages and land, building outside their own boundaries illegal settlements etc. If you think they are not bigoted against Palistinians or Arabs you've never been in a room with zionists when they speak about them. They use derogatory language similar to what I hear on this forum...anything to denigrate the opposition...

I'd suggest you do some googling...read an Israeli newspaper etc.

Islamofacists are a non-entity unless your going to consider christofacists, and neoconservatives as a threat to our country as well...in my opinion.

The carrot and stick has worked, is working, aggression in the name of Israel is NOT to our advantage...and I would appreciate it if you would refrain from presuming to know what I think because you are wrong more often than right. Try asking a question now and then instead of thinking you know who I am and what I think.

KJ

NeoConservative is OK to call, but Islamofacists is NOT OK to call....Guess that's why there are NO 'Neo-Liberals,' but just the same old socialistic loonies who have had a negative affect on this nation's morals while trying to make their 'pet sins' acceptable!! Oh, now I get it....blech!

Here we go again. trying to justify hatred/ fear of Iran. We were told that they were actively attempting to make Nuke weapons. I've stated in the past why it was foolish to believe that. turns out that the US provided them with tech to make Nuke energy back in the 70's, when the real tyrant..the SHAH was in charge. Funny..we give Iraq WMD knowledge then ##### they have WMD. Help Iran with Nuke power then ##### they are trying to get Nuke power. People you amaze me. In the 21 century you still worry about things that will never happen. When a tyrant ran Iran you felt they were our friends....So much for wanting Democracy in the middle east...you really want cronyism. You live your whole lives in fear.....the terrorists have already defeated you.

You can find insult in a descriptive phase and proceed to spout negativity..I called no names, I was talking about concepts...you don't get anything..not even close.

KJ