Originally Posted by Tom Joad

They were a back to nature movement. They were a little smelly but they really weren't hurting anyone. If they would have been living in some rural setting down south probably nobody would have even cared.

They built a bunker up on top of their house. And they didn't let people from the goverment like social workers, building inspectors, child welfare, and those sorts of busybodys in.

Well the police wern't going to just leave them be. So the cops started to break down the doors. The Move members barricated themselves in and a shootout started.

So the city decided to drop a bomb on them and burn them all up. Burned up the women and children too.

And the city let about 70 other peoples houses burn up while they were at it. I had a friend that had his house burned.

Basicly they burned up a bunch of people over a zoning matter and some civil disobedience.

Originally Posted by yoda

an interesting aspect of this thread... who it is ok to shoot at.. ( move the police) and who it is ok to Kill (where as the union hands marched the strike breakers out of the county,they shot and killed WAY more of them than they let live...During that time period on up till the late seventies they knew how to treat scabs around here...They died of lead poisoning and even their family was shunned.A brutal but most effective deterent )

and it all began with a comment about the suppression of labor by the military?

Fascinating mind sets!

Originally Posted by Muleskinner

I hope you never HAVE to do this ,but if you want to know how these "fascinating mind sets" came about around here.....Get up between 3:30 - 4am,start a fire in the stove for your wife to cook breakfast on and get your 9 kids up to start feeding the stock and doing a dozen other chores that HAVE to be done just for survival...Take your 18 yo son with you and go out while its still dark ,saddle a mule and ride 2 1/2 miles to town to catch a ride with your brothers in a old flatbed farm truck ...ride in the back of that truck(rain ,snow or sunny) with 6 -8 other guys for another 10 miles to the mine where for the next 14 + hours you will lay on your side beating with a pick axe,sledge hammer and a steel chisel (to bore hole to set powder charges) and drag timbers to prop the roof while your son loads a coal car and has ponies drag it to the top of the mine shaft where its tallied(thats how you got paid..piece work type thing)....while you're doing all this,timbers are cracking and popping all around you,coal dust is choking you and rubbing you raw as you sweat and you worry about feeding your family for another day....reverse your mode of travel for the way home.....unsaddle and feed the mule when you get home and feed him before you go in the house to feed yourself..eat a bit,clean up and fall into bed TIRED beyond imagination and knowing you've got to be back up in a few hours to start the process all over again for six days until you finally get your pay on Sat. evening.If you had a good partner(you worked in two man teams and would split the profit between yourselves after you paid rent on the ponies and coal car,paid for the blasting powder you used and whatever else the mine operator wanted to rip you off for) you could clear around $2.50 a DAY...$2.50 a day for 6 days is $15 ...You work 14 hours a day for 6 days=84 hours...you've average 5.6 cents an hour.Go through that 6 days a week....week after week and year after year...and as you watch your brothers die and you have to go tell your mom that shes lost another son(my Grandpa lost 3 to mine accidents and was badly burnt in a mine explosion himself) you continue to watch the mine operators get richer and richer and more greedy by the day until you and your fellow workers just finally snap and go on strike....You ask for better safety conditions,a living wage and humane treatment..ALL fair requests as the riches the mine operator and his arrogant family enjoy are bought by YOU and your families blood and sweat...You're not asking for much,not even anything near fair.

The mine operator(whos paid off the politicians for years) decides to lock you out and bring in strike breakers to teach you a lesson and he calls his scummy politician buddies to start earning his bribe money by bringing in the state guard to back him and his scabs up.Now,$2.50 a day ain't much money,but when it's all you have between living and starving, it's as big as a wagon wheel and when you see those scabs get off the train with thugs and the state guard protecting THEM and realise that they are taking every ounce of bargaining power away from you and the very food out of your kids mouths, not to mention a shot at a better future....I'd say MAYBE then Yoda ,you would have the slightest of ideas where that "facsinating mindset " that would cause you to kill somebody over principal and protecting your families very exsistence might come from.

I can very easily understand it.

Go grab the book "Bloody Williamson" and read it .If you like history,its a good book.If you want to understand that mindset,it'll explain it better than I can.

Originally Posted by MO family man

Please tell me that you didn't just try to justify killing people over a job?

Originally Posted by Tom Joad

The problem with these guys and their 1890's laisse fare capitialism fantasy is very much like the women who fantisize about the 1890's Victorian era.

In the woman's fantasy she is the little princess or the rich guys wife. For some reason in their fantasy nobody is the ditch digger's wife with a persistant yeast infection, washing cloths on the rocks in a creek.

And in these laisse fare guys heads, they are always the coal barron or the railroad tycoon. For some reason they are never a coal miner or a ditch digger with all the teeth rotting out of his mouth

Originally Posted by Muleskinner

Yes ,I did.If it wasn't for blood shed many years ago,you wouldn't be living in a house with indoor plumbing,electric or anything else other than the basics of survival.You need to get a clue and study a bit of labor history before you start crying for the big business man and his scabs...We've all benefited from it and anyone who thinks different is beyond ignorant as far as why you enjoy what little job security and safety in the work place you have today.

Don't worry though,theres a bright spot for guys like you.The Repubs are stripping it all away as fast as they can so you might get to go back to see how it was all done in the 30s and 40s around here where you live before long.Enjoy it.

Originally Posted by Tom Joad

The problem with these guys and their 1890's laisse fare capitialism fantasy is very much like the women who fantisize about the 1890's Victorian era.

In the woman's fantasy she is the little princess or the rich guys wife. For some reason in their fantasy nobody is the ditch digger's wife with a persistant yeast infection, washing cloths on the rocks in a creek.

And in these laisse fare guys heads, they are always the coal barron or the railroad tycoon. For some reason they are never a coal miner or a ditch digger with all the teeth rotting out of his mouth

Originally Posted by MO family man

If that's the thoughts that make you go then have at it hammer. I just hope life never forces you into a new line of work. I'm sure you wouldn't be able to bear the idea of taking another fellow's job. I also hope that you aren't trying to run your business better as that you might actually best your competitors thus rendering them unemployed. That would be a shame for all involved. On the bright side though if this now jobless fellow decides it is his right to off you at least you will be understanding about it.

Maybe you missed it but the "Repubs" as you call them were largely voted out in the last mid-term. That is called the country speaking. Now seeing how the "Dems?" (Sorry I don't waste my time trying to come up with witting names) have led the current Congress to lower approval numbers than even "W" has, I wonder what will happen next? Anyway thanks for the pathetic attempt to put me in a political party. I am just one of many descendants of immigrants who still view this as the land of opportunity and who still believe that HONEST hard work will always pay off in the end.