btw, ill reply to the other stuff later on...need some java.

__________________
associate production coordinating directorial associate managing deparmental divisional office supervisor of the international network amalgamation distributors corporation management organizational association of men who drive trucks.

The man just asked if it was better for drivers before or after deregulation. Not about the companies being able to compete. I was a driver before deregulation and after. I stand by my statement that it was better for DRIVERS before deregulation. There is no question that Scheider, JB, Swifty, etc etc. benefitted. If you can find any of the old Spectre, Mcleans{Double Diamond}, Halls, PIE, IML, Smith's, or drivers from literally a thousand union companies that lost their jobs due to deregulation, ask them what they thought of deregulation, if they thought it was a good thing. Everyone stand up and say, Thank You Jimmy Carter, we love deregulation.

Gosh Darn Ziggy you sure can run your mouth good. I am impressed with all the bull you can come up with to sell out your own bros. Let me get this right. You think that all truckers should work for less so the fat cats can get rich on our labor. this includes you. My back kills me every day at work and if you stay in this trade long yours will to. Are you sure your not a spy for the other side? it sure sounds like it to me. I do believe you are here just to entertain us and tell us how much you don't know.
Anyway.. When I first broke into trucking in the early eighty's I was a co-driver for a owner operator (bed bugger). This was just after deregulation, he was on his way out of the business because he said he couldn't make any money, and he wasn't going to go through what he has been for peanuts. I should have listened to what he was saying.

One of the difference's between now and then is, that the mentality was, America and Americans 1st. This has been lost to the "trickle down theory", and other politically quackery.

Deregulation has been a failure, allowing the Savings and loan failures, the Ivan Bosky / Michael Milken disaster, Enron failure, the dot com bubble, the housing bubble, and the financial collapse that is now taking place. Millions of peoples lives have been altered drastically, even destroyed.

As we can see by today's stock market movement, to the down side, corporations gone unchecked, (thanks to deregulation), will do what they want at any ones expense, at the expense of the public, citizens. While they live "high on the Hog".

Corporations are here to serve us, not for us to serve them. They have lost track of the idea of the customers always right, and America and Americans 1st. They have replaced it with greed.

Addition: Deregulation has allowed the transfer of our countries wealth to China a communist country. Deregulation has been and is a major failure in our country.

Lol wow, second time I've been accused of being a spy or lobbyist in one day....not a bad record. Just shows what can happen when you argue with others who dont like to use any actual facts, or economic sense.

Now earlier...I dont know if you read it or not...and you must have since you are picking on me for running my mouth...I talked about wages. And since you are giving me crap for wanting to work for pennies (which I never said)...Id like you to tell me HOW a wage should be set.

Feel free to tell us.

I feel that a wage should be competitive with others in the industry in the area / region. Some companies pay more to attract workers and the like. Im not talking about bennies either...just the $$.

So tell me in your idealistic monopolistic world where everything is run by the government, how would you determine your wage? Just pay you a lot because you deserve it? Or because someone had to stand in for you and demand your wages before youd work? Do you use various standards such as the requirements of the job, the skills needed, experience needed, the education (if any) needed...etc?

I mean, im not trying to be sarcastic here, but I keep bringing this up on various threads and seem to get nowhere. Instead, people accuse me of being against the American worker, working for The Man, being a spy, being a lobbiest, being something else that was incredibly low because I was not union and it was a reference to slave labor...etc. All this junk flies back, without any actual discussion on things based on economics.

Im saying that in this world today, with our world economy, we need to compete. Sure, you may not like it, or may not even want it...but until something changes...you have to deal with it. This is like people who thought fuel would never get up to 4 and 5 bucks a gallon; just never thought it could happen...while other people who actually wanted to survive planned for worst case scenario. Wake up to reality. The fantastical vision of everything being produced in America is fine and dandy....in fantasy Disney dreamland. In reality, it isn't feasable. I argued this before the other day and nobody countered to anything I mentioned...of course outside of the droll insults because I don't buy into Happyland.

This is part of the problem and views that many have on organized labor. I argue points and get insulted instead of having any actual discussion.

I mean, if you cant have an intellectual disccusion about something, then just say so.

No...I think all truckers should work. Trucking companies like every other company that exists, are out there for one reason and one reason only...to make money. How they make money is each companies unique product. I don't know of any organization that is out there that doesnt want to make money. Even non-profits have a goal of making money. And like it or not, no matter how you look at it, as long as you work for someone else...no matter the capacity, you are helping someone else make money off of you. And if you owned a company, youd be in the biz to make money yourself and would need workers to make the money for you.

or...do you happen to run a trucking company that pays out 110 bucks for every 100 that comes in?

__________________
associate production coordinating directorial associate managing deparmental divisional office supervisor of the international network amalgamation distributors corporation management organizational association of men who drive trucks.

Actually Ziggy... funny you mention this... this is what many medium size companies ARE doing in hopes of 1) taking it away from the bigger companies and 2) obtaining a more favorable contract down the road.

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Support the FairTax Plan
NO MORE IRS
NO MORE FED. INCOME TAXES

Ziggy... I've just never herd a truck driver say or imply that he wanted to make less money is all. Idealisic mono,,,,, what kind of word's are those? Do me a favor and keep the words small here your talking to a truck driver/biker not a professor. I never called you a geek or a snot nosed kid? No I didn't (oooppps I just did) so watch your fingers. The wages should be set by UNION SCALE, and if somebody can't or won't do there job get rid of them. If somebody is not qualified for a job heck no. I'm having that problem where I work now and it is very frustrating. If it wasn't for UNIONS setting the pay scale we all would be working for less because your seat can be filled tomorrow for less that your making now that is reality. Your 100 percent right about truckers working. I hate covering for somebody that won't carry their own weight. Yes all companies are in buisnes to make money. One thing I do know is that billy bob is going to pay you as little as possible to keep you around and as soon as he figures out a way to pay you or somebody elts less you are gone. Both you and me out of a job. Even if billy decides to put his cousin/nephew/son-in-law ect... in your seat because he (or she) of the relationship and he wants to keep it in the family you/me are out of a job. This all has to do with organized labor. Inta......what?

Dave Ramsey gets the same line...that he makes financial management over simplified. I guess the guy who has more money than Ill ever see has the wrong idea.
Economics is a complex system, but the basic underlying concepts are easy to understand.

Our politicians were elected by us and you are right that many things in the biz world have been outsourced. As a truck driver, Im bothered by some US toll roads being run by other countries; more technically companies from other countries. And our ports being managed by foreign companies as well.

As far as the steel industry...I dont know if your information is correct. US Steel is still US owned and run.
So is Cleveland Cliffs.

Although...interestingly enough, nobody is complaining that these US company have branched out to other countries, just like other countries companies are branching out to the US. Why doesnt this argument swing both ways here?

As far as China, simply put, their Iron ore, if Im not mistaken is of a higher quality than what we can produce here in the states and it is cheaper for the US companies to buy THAT ore than to get American ore of a lesser quality.

Hence the tariffs

The poverty level is fairly low. My question was how do YOU or how WOULD you determine your wages. It should be based on some sort of system outside of...a simplistic "I feel I deserve it because I think I work hard" attitude.
Also, many jobs rely on pay outside of a wage. Case in point...waiters and waitresses. They get paid very little, and often jobs can pay below minimum wages because of the high amount of tips so that poverty level argument wouldnt work. If it did, restaurants would need to pay their workers more and as such, raise their prices to the customer.
Deregulation didn't put ANYTHING. It allowed things to take place. It allowed companies to compete, plain and simple; something you can't deny. The companies that could compete, did it and grew, or failed. The ones that grew...well they grew and grew, giving them more of an edge in competition as they fine tuned their business. Outside of the large trucking companies that haul...general freight; there are plenty of smaller companies that have a niche where they are fine tuned in. Either reefer hauling, cattle hauling, flatbedding, local work with various companies such as mines and the like...etc. They Grew! They do their job so well that big companies dont even bother. Other companies are able to compete as well by offering a better product to the shipper and reciever via trucks, times, and other things they can offer.
If deregulation didnt take place, then there would only be a handful of companies as well as much higher prices...otherwise a monopoly. And what guarantees higher wages with regulation? Because the companies overall goal is to make money and they will, like any other company, offer low wages that still would be competetive with other companies, regulated or not.
Also...Im not sure about the cahoots with the insurance companies as the large trucking companies are self insured.
The trucking companies dont control the miles. They dont control anything. The shippers want to ship their freight for the lowest price, something you can't really argue. I mean...if Bobs house of Waffles and trucking wants to charge 2 bucks a mile to ship freight, and Georges national company can offer a lower priced product....aka the same exact thing for 1.75 a mile...well the shipper is going to choose the cheaper route, 9 times out of ten, or more.
Every large company offers low wages to its employees starting off, thats a common fact. I mean, you dont start off at high wages and then earn your way to lower wages. You start at the bottom and work the way up. The owner ops that CAN compete, ARE competing. They found a niche and other ways to survive. National companies can't work efficiently enough with smaller shippers. However, an Owner op that can find a smaller shipper to take loads from...and if they find a couple of shippers like that, they have their own...niche and can make some good money.
Example...a company in Logan UT, takes freight from a local manufacturer to Texas...takes a load from TX to AZ, and then a load from AZ back to Logan. Not bad and the drivers make pretty darned good money.
I mean, you are saying that owner ops cant compete. yes they can. Lol...not only can they compete, but they prosper and HOPE for higher fuel prices that keep them in business!
Your argument for corporations hinges on one fact that you are not admitting to. And that is, you seem to prefer that corporations only grow to a certain size. They apparently cant be too big. They cant make too much money. They also cant compete with other companies to grow bigger; and you seem to want them to operate in one area. Plus, with your argument of economics, they can't work and grow internationally either. What the heck is the point of owning a business then?

And in our economy, which IS a free Market economy, how can regulation work hand in hand with Free Market? You can't have it both ways.

Or not. lol. For one, I make, as a first year driver, just a tad under 37k right now. Thats working 10ish hoursa day, five days a week. When I get to one year, it will be 39k with the base salary PLUS quarterly bonuses. Thats on a dedicated run.

There ARE jobs that pay very good money to those who have 12 months of experience. Oilfield work out here in WY pays insane money. Hours suck, but the pay is around 70k, starting.

As far as trainers...it depends on the company. I know from a couple of sources that SNI pays their trainers 50 bucks for each student a day.

As far as reality, this goes back to the factual stuff. I haven't heard of companies tryign to get rid of drivers after a set time frame.


Do you think that maybe...just mayyyybe, companies moved to where they could cut costs? If they could pay their workers less, and produce a cheaper product that Americans would want? I mean...lets see, pay a worker 30+ an hour for a low skilled job...or pay a low skilled job a low skilled wage?

Simple question...WHY did the companies move overseas? The Labor rate is a huge factor, like 30% of their total costs..and by moving overseas, companies can save 85% of their labor costs. Id really like to be able to find a statistic and find out which companies have moved overseas and look specifically at the reason as well as their workforce, whether it was organized labor or not. Just out of curiosity.

Right, this is important to point out...because while some companies actually promote based on knowledge, skills, experience, attitude, dedication, drive, desire....others that are more...organized...promote based on longevity; basically promoting one to a level of incompetence because they have been there for a long time.

Right...and HOW is the union scale calculated?

__________________
associate production coordinating directorial associate managing deparmental divisional office supervisor of the international network amalgamation distributors corporation management organizational association of men who drive trucks.

[quote=ziggystyles;564019]Dave Ramsey gets the same line...that he makes financial management over simplified. I guess the guy who has more money than Ill ever see has the wrong idea.
Economics is a complex system, but the basic underlying concepts are easy to understand.

Dave Ramsey discusses financial management for individuals... not trucking companies, corporations or countries. lol Which would explain why his details are a bit simpler.

Our politicians were elected by us and you are right that many things in the biz world have been outsourced. As a truck driver, Im bothered by some US toll roads being run by other countries; more technically companies from other countries. And our ports being managed by foreign companies as well.

Damn... you agreed with me!

As far as the steel industry...I dont know if your information is correct. US Steel is still US owned and run.
So is Cleveland Cliffs.

It is... I don't make up this idiocy... or other things of interest such as China holding out T-Bills which could be cashed in whenever... there's all kinds of examples of our stupidity out there.

Although...interestingly enough, nobody is complaining that these US company have branched out to other countries, just like other countries companies are branching out to the US. Why doesnt this argument swing both ways here?

Nobody is complaining??? You mean here? Or where? There's many complaining... I have been elsewhere...and there are few companies from elsewhere branching out to the US. LOL Some are actually closing up shop... due to little things like taxes. Read the FairTax books and you'll find answers to much of this.

As far as China, simply put, their Iron ore, if Im not mistaken is of a higher quality than what we can produce here in the states and it is cheaper for the US companies to buy THAT ore than to get American ore of a lesser quality.

Actually, that is why the Russian conglomerate purchased the mines in PA., because they wanted to be assured of high quality ore for thier steel, and have market control of quanity, quality and price.

The poverty level is fairly low. My question was how do YOU or how WOULD you determine your wages. It should be based on some sort of system outside of...a simplistic "I feel I deserve it because I think I work hard" attitude.

My wages personally are determined by myself, and what people are willing to pay me. But I am NOT a large corporation. I am a small one man business... just as owner operators and small trucking outfits are.

Also, many jobs rely on pay outside of a wage. Case in point...waiters and waitresses. They get paid very little, and often jobs can pay below minimum wages because of the high amount of tips so that poverty level argument wouldnt work.

Minimum wage is a guarantee... it has to be met. But it is a useless gauge of income required for a standard of living needed to survive.

If it did, restaurants would need to pay their workers more and as such, raise their prices to the customer.

They do in some cases.

Deregulation didn't put ANYTHING. It allowed things to take place. It allowed companies to compete, plain and simple; something you can't deny. Only initially. And it did... it PUT smaller businesses and owner operators out of business by allowing things to take place... namely by allowing some corporations to monopolize an industry. As I mentioned, give any corporation free reign and eventually the pendulum will swing. They exist for one purpose, to make money and to monopolize their specific industry.... which is why regulation will always, ALWAYS be required... You fail to recognize the GOAL in a free market, is a monopoly! What about that do you not get??? Eventually deregulation destroys the very industry it was meant to free up, because eventually, somebody wins!

The companies that could compete, did it and grew, or failed. The ones that grew...well they grew and grew, giving them more of an edge in competition as they fine tuned their business. Outside of the large trucking companies that haul...general freight; there are plenty of smaller companies that have a niche where they are fine tuned in. Either reefer hauling, cattle hauling, flatbedding, local work with various companies such as mines and the like...etc. They Grew! The number of small companies and owner operators has declined drastically of time since deregulation, not grown. They do their job so well that big companies dont even bother. Other companies are able to compete as well by offering a better product to the shipper and reciever via trucks, times, and other things they can offer. This is not true... the big companies have these "specialty divisions in order to compete.

If deregulation didnt take place, then there would only be a handful of companies as well as much higher prices...otherwise a monopoly.

Essentially there is now a monopoly... Swift... not in the truest definition of one, but they are so large they force others to due business as they do to compete, and force those that can't or won't do business as they do to underbid them and lose money to keep business from their trucks.

And what guarantees higher wages with regulation? Because the companies overall goal is to make money and they will, like any other company, offer low wages that still would be competetive with other companies, regulated or not.

Just compare the industry before and after deregulation. One driver told me yesterday in a post here that 20 -30 years ago... the avg. driver worked for 27 years. Nowadays... 3.5 years.

Also...Im not sure about the cahoots with the insurance companies as the large trucking companies are self insured.

Cahoots was not possibly the correct term, but insurance companies have also driven many a small trucking company and Owner operator out of business, which is why you almost HAVE to work for one of these ######## companies... the driver mills... for a year or two, because due to insurance costs the smaller companies can't afford to hire you and make a profit.


The trucking companies dont control the miles. They dont control anything.

LOL Tell that to all the drivers with these large companies... the lease operators and 2nd year company drivers who see their miles drop, their loads drop... lol Get serious man. That is the reality... I think you need to start reading some other areas in this forum, cause you are missing a whole shitload of stuff you are trying to unsuccessfully to argue.

The shippers want to ship their freight for the lowest price, something you can't really argue. I mean...if Bobs house of Waffles and trucking wants to charge 2 bucks a mile to ship freight, and Georges national company can offer a lower priced product....aka the same exact thing for 1.75 a mile...well the shipper is going to choose the cheaper route, 9 times out of ten, or more.
Every large company offers low wages to its employees starting off, thats a common fact. I mean, you dont start off at high wages and then earn your way to lower wages. You start at the bottom and work the way up. The owner ops that CAN compete, ARE competing. They found a niche and other ways to survive. National companies can't work efficiently enough with smaller shippers. However, an Owner op that can find a smaller shipper to take loads from...and if they find a couple of shippers like that, they have their own...niche and can make some good money.
Example...a company in Logan UT, takes freight from a local manufacturer to Texas...takes a load from TX to AZ, and then a load from AZ back to Logan. Not bad and the drivers make pretty darned good money.
I mean, you are saying that owner ops cant compete. yes they can. Lol...not only can they compete, but they prosper and HOPE for higher fuel prices that keep them in business!
Your argument for corporations hinges on one fact that you are not admitting to. And that is, you seem to prefer that corporations only grow to a certain size. They apparently cant be too big. They cant make too much money. They also cant compete with other companies to grow bigger; and you seem to want them to operate in one area. Plus, with your argument of economics, they can't work and grow internationally either. What the heck is the point of owning a business then?

LOL... I am not even going to go into you waffle house crap... you get too excited. Again... PLEASE READ SLOWLY FOR COMPREHENSION:
Corporations, given unbridled, free reign in a free economy will have one natural goal... a monopoly. THAT is a fact. Every single industry deregulated in this country back in the 70's is now currently coming apart at the seems. And they have destroyed competiton, small businesses, and themselves in some cases, in doing so.

And in our economy, which IS a free Market economy, how can regulation work hand in hand with Free Market? You can't have it both ways.

See above... you can not only have, but need, a free market with regulation... not that I want California, which is an excellent example of a state that needs to be regulated to keep it from regulating life any further... lmao!

Or not. lol. For one, I make, as a first year driver, just a tad under 37k right now. Thats working 10ish hoursa day, five days a week. When I get to one year, it will be 39k with the base salary PLUS quarterly bonuses. Thats on a dedicated run.

You are fortunate to have a good job, let alone a dedicated run. You are one who probably doesn't count as "working" the remainder of the time spent, not at home, but... working. But that's a whole nother debate... lol

There ARE jobs that pay very good money to those who have 12 months of experience. Oilfield work out here in WY pays insane money. Hours suck, but the pay is around 70k, starting.

Yep. I agree... Holy crapoli Ziggy... twice we agree!

As far as trainers...it depends on the company. I know from a couple of sources that SNI pays their trainers 50 bucks for each student a day.

As far as reality, this goes back to the factual stuff. I haven't heard of companies tryign to get rid of drivers after a set time frame.

Then Ziggy, you fail to understand the one basic concept under which this entire industry currently works, which I explained in the previous post. I won't even take credit as it was simply put that way to me by another driver who's been at it since the early 80's... in one of those other threads you obviously do not read... you really should.

Do you think that maybe...just mayyyybe, companies moved to where they could cut costs? If they could pay their workers less, and produce a cheaper product that Americans would want? I mean...lets see, pay a worker 30+ an hour for a low skilled job...or pay a low skilled job a low skilled wage?

Simple question...WHY did the companies move overseas? The Labor rate is a huge factor, like 30% of their total costs..and by moving overseas, companies can save 85% of their labor costs. Id really like to be able to find a statistic and find out which companies have moved overseas and look specifically at the reason as well as their workforce, whether it was organized labor or not. Just out of curiosity.

Read the 2 books on the FairTax proposal and you will gain some incite as to why companies have moved over sees... wages is an excuse, not a sole reason or even a main reason. The % of wages v. gross costs varies from one industry to another and each has it's own formula (restaurants v. retail) and there are many other variable as well. Labor is really not a major factor, though it is a major cost. Reducing labor puts more money into the hands of corporate shareholders and officers... as is the goal. You need to compare the govts tax structure and tariff structure v. other govts worldwide as well, which you fail consider.

I do believe there are thousands of examples you can find Ziggy, where businesses pay a good, or even union wage... and actually still make a profit and are in business... maybe not a profit like Nike with it's .25/hour overseas labor costs, but... they do well.

Right, this is important to point out...because while some companies actually promote based on knowledge, skills, experience, attitude, dedication, drive, desire....others that are more...organized...promote based on longevity; basically promoting one to a level of incompetence because they have been there for a long time. Right...and HOW is the union scale calculated?

__________________
Support the FairTax Plan
NO MORE IRS
NO MORE FED. INCOME TAXES

This is all very interesting but to involved for me. I'm out.