I had to put "serious" in there because...hey, its me in a union thread asking a question. And as such, asking a bunch of union / teamster members such a question is probably dumb because I know what the answer will be...but alas.

Just trying to get some opinions on here about the bailouts. We all know that a couple of months back, the gov rejected a 700 billion dollar bailout. A few days later, a larger bailout, closer to 1 trillion dollars (due to all the added pork to entice 'yes' votes) was passed. Since then, we have continued to additionally bailout companies left and right and daily we hear jokes amongst each other it seems, asking when WE will get a bailout ourselves as people.

Already the auto industry has recieved something like 25 billion in aid to retool their factories. Ontop of that, they want another 10 billion for a bailout (although I've heard higher figures).

Now, they are thinking of making GMAC into a bank, just like American Express did...which would allow it to..................GET additional money from the original 1 trillion dollar bailout.

Where do we draw the line here? I mean, yeah I know there are tons of jobs on the line with the automakers, but our economy is built upon a lot of "Hard working Americans" and "if you cant make it, you die" beliefs. If the automakers can't make cars people want, can't retool their own factories for such demands, can't do anything at all with research and development...and the list of "Can'ts" goes on and on.....why should the American People be forced to help them? This is the way it SHOULD work...if you can't run a company in good times and bad, then you should suffer and possibly GO out of business if it gets to that point.

The problem here is that...now we arent letting anybody fail. The gov is handing out money it doesn't have to companies left and right because they struggle? And on top of that, the drudgereport had an article last week where the Feds are refusing to show us where the money is going. I think the American people should see exactly where the money is going in rediculously insane detail.

During the elections...McCain got a lot of heat for saying that the fundamentals of our economy were strong. Well...I do believe they are. I believe that what our economy is built on, the principals that were once there, of a free market, and competition were a great foundation. Because, if someone sucked and failed...they'd go out of business and someone would step up to bat. However, as a country, we are refusing to let that happen. We are actually fighting what this economy and country was built upon. No longer are we allowing companies to fail, but we keep infusing them with wads of money left and right to seal the cracks.

What do you think?

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associate production coordinating directorial associate managing deparmental divisional office supervisor of the international network amalgamation distributors corporation management organizational association of men who drive trucks.

I think it is more about saving an INDUSTRY and not just bailing out a "company"

there are so many secondary industries that supply and feed on the American automakers... - man it is far reaching and wide...


If it was one company - who was failing - then let them sink (as long as the others are doing fairly well) but it is our entire auto industry

let them go under and it will cost a lot A LOT more than a trillion to help all those out of work at the plastics / oil / textile / rubber / steel / chemical and logistic companies...

(not to mention the hundreds of thousands that work at dealerships and supply houses.)


I hear ya Ziggy on the idea of letting the weak die - but when everyone is hurting - it is hard to watch the attrition.

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TEAMSTERS LOCAL 100


Faster than a 60 MPH bullet....

But is it our auto industry that is dying or just the three that had the least foresight?

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Bad spellers of the world...UNTIE!!!

HOW CAN A STRANGER TELL IF TWO PEOPLE ARE MARRIED?
You might have to guess, based on whether they seem to be yelling at the same kids.

The Big Three got themselves into this predicament, they need to get themselves out. If they get a bailout, it's not going to matter, they still fail. They have zero incentive to change the way they conduct business. There will be a parade of companies looking for a handout, airlines, GE, health care, and on and on.

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New Obama podium sign: "Office of the Unindicted Co-Conspirator".
Just so we are clear, Conservatives want to help those that can’t help themselves. Liberals want to help those that won’t help themselves.

Boycott Detroit

I dont remember if it was Ford or GM but I heard the other day that since the price of gas has gone down they are increasing production of FULL SIZE SUV'S.
THESE GUYS JUST DONT LEARN..........AND NOW THEY WANT US TO BAIL THEM OUT?

I suppose there are a million factors at play here...

The cash for a "bailout" SHOULD come with restrictions - maybe even an oversight committee to see that the funds are not wasted on pointless development or the same ol same ol...

no matter what each of us thinks - I think we can all agree that this is a MESS.

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TEAMSTERS LOCAL 100


Faster than a 60 MPH bullet....

Definitely a mess. And you have a major point about the other businesses affected by the auto industry. GM is closing down their Janesville, WI plant, and there are about 6 other businesses that will end up closing their doors at the same time in the area because of direct connection with the GM plant.

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I didn't say it was your fault, I said I was going to blame you.

Dynamite comes in small packages, Nitro comes in smaller ones, take your pick!

I know that when the Ford Plant that I worked at closed down - 3 tool and die shops - and 2 small trucking companies went under.

also the town dried up and blew away...


you take a town of 30K people and eliminate 3000 75K$ jobs and watch what happens to the local retail scene.

JC pennys - gone

Kmart - gone

mall - gone

4 decent restaurants - gone

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TEAMSTERS LOCAL 100


Faster than a 60 MPH bullet....

Lat, I agree that yea, this is a mess and that by doing nothing, lots of jobs will be affected. I see your point and I know how lots of jobs are affected by this entire pile that the automakers are in.

I think that yea, there should be at least some oversight if we absolutly must do this bailout. First we need to see where their money is going...like...where the black vacuum of death is sucking all their money. Second, I think they need to lay out a specific plan on exactly where they will spend every single penny, and why they need it. Third, we need a plan from them on how and when they will pay US back.

I heard a comment on Glenn Becks radio show this morning. He had a stat that I found insane about auto workers (UAW)...and while Im not trying to get into anything here...in 2006, the average (AVERAGE) UAW worker made $81/hour. That included their wages and bennies...all that gunk. Now its down to something like 78 bucks an hour.

Now, non-union Toyota and Nissan workers make 48 an hour with bennies and make almost 100k a year! Their lower costs, add up to an additional $1,000 savings in each car they make compared to GM...which is one of the reasons they are selling lots o cars.

Also, a good point in this article is a question of:
"What good is a bailout if consumers won't buy enough of their cars to turn a profit?"

Then I heard another good point from Dale Sommers on his show about when he was younger and was more into news reporting and such. He asked a member of a board for a chinese automaker what and how they did what they did. The guy replied that in their companies, they sit down, everyone together and figure out what to make...etc. Then they figure out how to keep that customer happy down the road...they plan out ten years into the future. While here in the states, they seem to plan for the next couple of months.

One good point that a Senator on Becks show had today was that if we did nothing, no bailout...the companies wouldn't go under. They would have to make some serious cuts and such, but they wouldnt go under.

Link to article:
[LINK POSTED BY MEMBER] Only Members Can View This Truck Forum Link.

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associate production coordinating directorial associate managing deparmental divisional office supervisor of the international network amalgamation distributors corporation management organizational association of men who drive trucks.

Ford GM and Dodge need to take on the UAW like Cat did. The UAW has priced it's labor way above what the market will bear so i guess they are getting what they deserve.......

[LINK POSTED BY MEMBER] Only Members Can View This Truck Forum Link.

Over the past several years, employment at Caterpillar is up 25 percent to around 95,000 people. Owens said that without the two-tier wage system, his company would have had to move more of its operations overseas.

"We were on a path to be not competitive in the world market had we not changed," Owens said. "We will pay good, at or above market compensation, to employees at every level throughout the company. But we can't pay substantially greater than the market will bear — it just doesn't work."

[LINK POSTED BY MEMBER] Only Members Can View This Truck Forum Link. When times were good, the automakers did not take on the UAW, which the companies say drove up their labor costs to $30 per hour more than Japanese companies paid their workers. The figure includes pension and health care costs for hundreds of thousands of retirees.

When GM pushed for changes in 1998, the union went on strike at two key Flint, Mich., parts plants, shutting down the company and costing it about $2 billion in profits.

‘‘They were making money and the union had a monopoly,’’ Cole said. ‘‘They’d shut them down. That’s why they had some very lengthy strikes that were very painful.’’

But when the SUV and truck market started to fade in the mid-2000s, executives realized their business model would no longer work and began globalizing their vehicles, streamlining manufacturing processes and developing new and better cars.

The UAW, realizing that the companies were in trouble, agreed to a landmark new contract last year that nearly eliminated the labor cost difference between the Detroit Three and the Japanese, shifting retiree health care costs to a union-administered trust fund.

[LINK POSTED BY MEMBER] Only Members Can View This Truck Forum Link.

According to Ford's annual report it has paid at an average $70.51 an hour in wages, pension, and health care costs for hourly workers last year. On the other hand General Motors' annual reports show that its labor costs average reaches $73.26 an hour while that of Chrysler Group's reaches an average labor cost of $73.86.

The three Detroit-based automakers will be working together to urge UAW to reduce costs to about $48 an hour which is about the average hourly cost incurred by their Japanese rivals Toyota, Nissan, and Honda.

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Look on the bright side of things.

We will not have to travel half way around the world anymore to fight Socialism and Communism.

We can do it right here at home from our front porches and in the streets of our own nation.

Fight for Liberty will not be a slogan of a noble idea but a reality of daily life.

Socialism and total Government control are not knocking at the door anymore, they have walked in, invited by the huddled masses who are determined to "vote"themselves the things they want.