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  1. #11
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    yup its hazmat..

    unless the tote or tank is cleaned and purged it is hazmat...that why empty fuel trucks leave their placards on when the tankers are empty..


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  3. #12
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    I finally found where in the CDL book where bulk containers are required to be placarded even if they only have residue in them. It's in the Hazardous materials section. Which I never read because in the beginning of the book is says you only have to study that section if you are applying for HM endorsement. I never thought I needed a HM endorsement so I never studied that section.
    If you aren't required to read it then how am I supposed to know it?
    WTF?

  4. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by redsoxfan4ever View Post
    unless the tote or tank is cleaned and purged it is hazmat...that why empty fuel trucks leave their placards on when the tankers are empty..
    Yes but how were you informed of this? How is someone not trained in HM supposed to know they can't haul an empty container with no HM decals on it? How are they supposed to know that it must be cleaned and purged and only by a certified company?
    If I had known any of this I would not be in this situation. This information should be conveyed to all CDL Drivers regardless of HM endorsement, is my point.

  5. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by localmack View Post
    Was the tank empty and cleaned out? or empty with fuel residue still present?
    I thought the law was if any tank is cleaned out properly, no placards are needed?
    In order for it to be cleaned properly it must be cleaned and purged by a company that is certified to clean and purge tanks. And then you have to have their official paperwork certifying that it has been done by a certified company.

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  7. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by 82ndCowboy View Post
    I received a hazmat violation in Florida for having an empty 500 gal portable fuel tank on my flatbed trailer. The shipper did not mark it with HM decals and they did not inform me that it was Hazardous Material.
    I did not know that an empty tank is Hazardous Material. I have searched the CDL manual and the FMCSA website and no where can I find where it states that an empty portable container IS Hazardous Material.
    I was put out of service and given a citation because I do not have HM endorsement. I removed the tank and was put back in service and was allowed to leave.
    Now I have to go to court for the citation.
    I am planning to get a lawyer, but I am curious as to if I need to because I can not find what the penalties are for this type of violation. The only info I found is that it can be up to a 250,000. dollar fine.
    Has anyone ever had a HM violation and had to go to court over it?
    What can I expect to happen?

    In order to fall under bulk packaging the container has to be permanently fixed. Yours was portable. If I ain't mistaken, class 3 reportable quantity is 1001 lbs for placards. No placards, no hazmat needed.

    Tell me exactly what was in the tank and I'll research it further for you.

    As far as hazmat training goes, there are two seperate sections in the drivers manual. Non-hazmat drivers are suppose to read the first part which is just the bare minimum about hazmat. All drivers should know that part. The hazmat section is totally seperate from that.

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  9. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by CondoCruiser View Post
    In order to fall under bulk packaging the container has to be permanently fixed. Yours was portable. If I ain't mistaken, class 3 reportable quantity is 1001 lbs for placards. No placards, no hazmat needed.

    Tell me exactly what was in the tank and I'll research it further for you.

    As far as hazmat training goes, there are two seperate sections in the drivers manual. Non-hazmat drivers are suppose to read the first part which is just the bare minimum about hazmat. All drivers should know that part. The hazmat section is totally seperate from that.

    It was a 500 gal tank that was welded onto a 4 wheel cart. It had had off road diesel fuel in it but it had been drained out so there was only a minute amount left in the bottom, clearly less than a gallon.

    As far as the CDL manual, I read the non-HM drivers part, that part has nothing in it about empty containers and nothing at all about bulk containers requiring placards even if they only have residue in them.
    That is my gripe.
    There is nothing about it till you read the HM section that is required to receive HM endorsement. I did not go for a HM endorsement so therefore I was in the dark. There should be something in the Non-HM section that teaches CDL drivers that even if a container is empty, it requires you to treat it as HM.

  10. #17
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    And Now I have a gripe with the forum moderator who moved my post!
    This is not a question about Legal Advice.
    I wanted O/O to advise me on what to expect from this particular violation.
    Company drivers are not going to have the answer I am looking for because their company is the party that has to deal with this issue.
    I am looking for O/O that have had to go to court on this kind of violation as to learn of the ramifications.
    I am not asking for legal advice.

  11. #18
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    There's a couple angles here.

    Identifying a hazmat load. That pretty much falls on the shipper. If there are no clues to you like markings, stickers, you don't know. It's not up to the driver to open the tank and physically inspect it and test it. You were told it was empty. You were mislead by the shipper and not given any clue it was hazmat. From someone that normally deals in hazmat, you might suspect hazmat. But this being an off the wall load from a non-hazmat shipper, I really don't think they can hold that against you. That could of been a water tank for all you knew.
    You done your part there. The shipper is the negligent one.

    The second one is what they consider the tank? Is it bulk or not is the big question. Bulk has to be a permanently fixed tank and I read something about it had to be able to hold 4000kg or 8820 lbs. That's a little more than 1100 gallon tank or container. To me yours was portable which puts it on the reportable quantity chart. And for class 3 flammables it is 1001 lbs. A gas truck is bulk and falls in another category. A tank on wheels, even though looks like a tank is still portable.

    Let me do more research on the bulk definition thing. I have another lead.

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  13. #19
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    This is what they cited me for:
    1. "391.15a - Driving a CMV while disqualified - no haz-mat endorsement when required - 450 gal portable tank with diesel fuel residue being transported"
    2. "392.2 - Local Laws (General) - no haz-mat endorsement when required - transporting 450 gal. portable fuel tank"
    3. "177.817a - no shipping papers (carrier) - none on truck - 450 gal portable fuel tank with diesel residue in tank."
    4. "177.823a - No placards and or makings when required - none on truck or load - 450 gal portable tank with diesel residue being transported on trailer."

  14. #20
    The Legend CondoCruiser's Avatar
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    Bad news, I found it.
    Bulk does include portable tanks greater than 119 gallon. (49 CFR 172.313 HMTR)

    Looks like it's a legit OoS. It's not the end of the world though. It takes about three-four of them to start hurting you. Just keep your nose clean and the points will drop over the next 3 years.

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