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Thread: 49 cfr 391.11

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    49 cfr 391.11

    Sorry if this topic was covered before, but I haven't seen it. What is up with so many drivers getting licenses that can not speak the English language. We had a guy come test for a driving job and we had one of our employee's that was from Russia come and translate during the interview. Needless to say, he didn't get the job, but where in the world did the DMV that issued him a cdl ever think that he was competent in the English language to be issued a cdl.
    What is anyone doing to see that 49 CFR 391.11 b2 is enforced?


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    It seems that the Law only applies to Legal Citizens of this Country

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    Part 391 is separate from Part 383 for CDLs. Just because a driver has a CDL does not mean they are qualified to drive.

    To drive a CMV over 26,001 pounds or with placarded quantites, or 16 or more passengers a driver must:

    1. Have a CDL per Part 383.23
    2. Have a pre-employment drug test and be enrolled in a random D & A program per Part 382

    3. Be 21 years of age per Part 391
    4. Be physically qualified per Part 391
    5. Be able to speak English per Part 391

    A driver can be placed OOS as a non-English driver per Part 391 or be placed OOS for having an expired or revoked or suspended CDL.

    Apples and oranges....

    Be safe.

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    No apples and oranges anywhere that I can see. It doesn't matter where in the reg's it is stated. What matters is that the cdl is issued in the first place by a State agency such as a dmv, or a recognized third party agency. Somewhere people are getting around the requirement. Either the legitimate agency isn't doing an adequate job to ensure that the requirement is met, or the cdl's are obtained fraudulently. In either case, the government needs to step up its enforcement of its regulations.
    In our case where we had to have an interpreter, the gentleman that was applying with us had 15 years driving in the United States, and I question the fact that he still had a cdl! Was he never stopped by the DOT at a scale house? If he was, we could see that he had a hard time communicating with us, didn't the DOT person?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike_MD View Post
    Part 391 is separate from Part 383 for CDLs. Just because a driver has a CDL does not mean they are qualified to drive.

    To drive a CMV over 26,001 pounds or with placarded quantites, or 16 or more passengers a driver must:

    1. Have a CDL per Part 383.23
    2. Have a pre-employment drug test and be enrolled in a random D & A program per Part 382

    3. Be 21 years of age per Part 391
    4. Be physically qualified per Part 391
    5. Be able to speak English per Part 391

    A driver can be placed OOS as a non-English driver per Part 391 or be placed OOS for having an expired or revoked or suspended CDL.

    Apples and oranges....

    Be safe.
    #5 is Illegal and discriminatory in the state of California......
    If that is not true then why is that 99% of Drayage drivers don't speak English?

    At least 75% of dump truck drivers don't speak English let alone have a least a class "B"......

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    I remember a memorandum from headquarters in Washington sent out before I retired that stated we federal officials were not going to enforce the English language requirement much to the chagrin of most of us. The CVSA to their favor, stated their state and provincial member states & provinces would continue to enforce this rule. But in all fairness we did not have that much to do with drivers as the vast majority of our time was spent with compliance reviews and we did not speak to that many drivers.

    I therefore salute the CVSA! I would not like to be a state official at some weigh/inspection station and be required to know a half dozen different languages. English is our language, not Spanish, Arabic, or any other language.

    As far as the states go, it is my personal opinion that this is another way of obtaining more money as the states realize many of these drivers won't get a job. Nonetheless, I also believe the states have erred in an attempt to reduce the so-called driver shortage of a few years ago. Insodoing, they opened a pandora's box.
    Last edited by psanderson; 05.13.2009 at 08.16 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by psanderson View Post
    I remember a memorandum from headquarters in Washington sent out before I retired that stated we federal officials were not going to enforce the English language requirement much to the chagrin of most of us. The CVSA to their favor, stated their state and provincial member states & provinces would continue to enforce this rule. But in all fairness we did not have that much to do with drivers as the vast majority of our time was spent with compliance reviews and we did not speak to that many drivers.

    I therefore salute the CVSA! I would not like to be a state official at some weigh/inspection station and be required to know a half dozen different languages. English is our language, not Spanish, Arabic, or any other language.

    As far as the states go, it is my personal opinion that this is another way of obtaining more money as the states realize many of these drivers won't get a job. Nonetheless, I also believe the states have erred in an attempt to reduce the so-called driver shortage of a few years ago. Insodoing, they opened a pandora's box.
    California is a member of the CVSA is it not??????

    California to my knowledge has the highest rate on non-English speaking drivers on the road.....

    The largest portion are the Hispanics...
    The we have the Armenians who run asphalt but they're getting displaced by the Hispanics... The Russians...who actually will speak English......
    Every Sikh driver I've seen and spoke to, spoke better English than most other Americans.....so they're not a problem...

    What would help, would be a national requirement for those who live and work here to become proficient at English in order to have any vehicle license from a Class M all the way up to an "A"......Hell...English should be required to get a job in this country, period......you can't work in Mexico unless you speak Spanish...You can't work in France unless you speak French...Why not here with English????

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron-MARS Trucking View Post
    What would help, would be a national requirement for those who live and work here to become proficient at English in order to have any vehicle license from a Class M all the way up to an "A"......Hell...English should be required to get a job in this country, period......you can't work in Mexico unless you speak Spanish...You can't work in France unless you speak French...Why not here with English????
    Bonjour; Comma Sa Va?
    I agree with you wholeheartedly. When I was in Michigan we saw lots of Canadians originally from India. Some of them were like your Russians, and I applaud them. At least they made the effort. The Hispanics I saw in CA were usually the ones who expected us to speak their language and that galls me too!

    We must also remember that CA, although a CVSA member, is a different world in all areas of actions. If they put the non-English speaking drivers O/O/S there wouldn't be many trucks on the road

    All the provinces of Canada are also members of the CVSA but they also have national laws that prohibit discrimination against language, this to appease the French Canadians. But then again, Quebec doesn't even fly the Mapleleaf they're so arrogant.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AKN Freightliner View Post
    No apples and oranges anywhere that I can see. It doesn't matter where in the reg's it is stated. What matters is that the cdl is issued in the first place by a State agency such as a dmv, or a recognized third party agency. Somewhere people are getting around the requirement. Either the legitimate agency isn't doing an adequate job to ensure that the requirement is met, or the cdl's are obtained fraudulently. In either case, the government needs to step up its enforcement of its regulations.
    In our case where we had to have an interpreter, the gentleman that was applying with us had 15 years driving in the United States, and I question the fact that he still had a cdl! Was he never stopped by the DOT at a scale house? If he was, we could see that he had a hard time communicating with us, didn't the DOT person?
    AKN, you have a mis conception of the regulations. No where in Part 383 is there a requirement for a driver to speak English.... The ability to speak English falls under Part 391.

    www.fmcsa.dot.gov

    The rules are on the Internet for your review. Please feel free to provide a section within Part 383 that requires a driver to speak English. Part 391 kicks in at 10,001 pounds, 8 passengers or more including the driver, or placarded quantities of HM Part 383 doesn't kick in until 26,001 pounds, placarded quantites, or 16 or more passengers including the driver.

    §383.5 Definitions.

    As used in this part:


    Commercial motor vehicle (CMV) means a motor vehicle or combination of motor vehicles used in commerce to transport passengers or property if the motor vehicle—
    (a) Has a gross combination weight rating of 11,794 kilograms or more (26,001 pounds or more) inclusive of a towed unit(s) with a gross vehicle weight rating of more than 4,536 kilograms (10,000 pounds); or

    (b) Has a gross vehicle weight rating of 11,794 or more kilograms (26,001 pounds or more); or

    (c) Is designed to transport 16 or more passengers, including the driver; or

    (d) Is of any size and is used in the transportation of hazardous materials as defined in this section.

    §390.5 Definitions.

    Unless specifically defined elsewhere, in this subchapter:


    Commercial motor vehicle means any self-propelled or towed motor vehicle used on a highway in interstate commerce to transport passengers or property when the vehicle—
    (1) Has a gross vehicle weight rating or gross combination weight rating, or gross vehicle weight or gross combination weight, of 4,536 kg (10,001 pounds) or more, whichever is greater; or

    (2) Is designed or used to transport more than 8 passengers (including the driver) for compensation; or

    (3) Is designed or used to transport more than 15 passengers, including the driver, and is not used to transport passengers for compensation; or

    (4) Is used in transporting material found by the Secretary of Transportation to be hazardous under 49 U.S.C. 5103 and transported in a quantity requiring placarding under regulations prescribed by the Secretary under 49 CFR, subtitle B, chapter I, subchapter C.
    As I mentioned before apples and oranges....

    Ron-MARS Trucking:

    #5 is Illegal and discriminatory in the state of California......
    If that is not true then why is that 99% of Drayage drivers don't speak English?

    At least 75% of dump truck drivers don't speak English let alone have a least a class "B"......
    California officers enforce California laws. Federal inspectors enforce federal laws. Some states have adopted the FMCSR, California is not one of those states. California has a rule to match most of the FMCSR; however, not all Parts are the same. When a state officer issues a citation it is for violation of a state rule, not a violation of the federal rule.

    CDL standards are set by federal regulations, states must adopt rules to conform with the federal rules or loose grant money. If a driver operates a vehicle that requires a CDL the driver may recieve a citation from a city, county, or state officer. If a driver is stopped by a federal officer or a state MCSAP officer in a vehicle that requires a CDL the driver would be placed OOS.

    It's not as simple as you think....

    psanderson

    I remember a memorandum from headquarters in Washington sent out before I retired that stated we federal officials were not going to enforce the English language requirement much to the chagrin of most of us. The CVSA to their favor, stated their state and provincial member states & provinces would continue to enforce this rule. But in all fairness we did not have that much to do with drivers as the vast majority of our time was spent with compliance reviews and we did not speak to that many drivers.
    The memorandum was reversed and an English proficiency test was developed:

    http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/documents/i...eakenglish.pdf

    Drivers with multiple OOS for English are sought out for possible issues with failing to meet the standards.

    When Mr. Joe Clapp because the first Administrator of the FMCSA in 2001 he instituted a program requiring Safety Investigators (SIs) to perform 32 Level I or Level 5 inspections to remain qualified:

    http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/about/news/...001/100501.htm

    http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/NTC/content...%20Content.pdf

    Since the implimentation of the program all SIs must perform a minimum of 32 Level 1 or Level 5 inspections o remain qualified.

    As far as the states go, it is my personal opinion that this is another way of obtaining more money as the states realize many of these drivers won't get a job. Nonetheless, I also believe the states have erred in an attempt to reduce the so-called driver shortage of a few years ago. Insodoing, they opened a pandora's box.
    There is nothing in Part 383 that prohibits a driver from having a CDL that cannot speak English.

    Ron-MARS Trucking:

    California is a member of the CVSA is it not??????
    A limited number of MCSAP officers are capable of placing a driver OOS, the other officers have no jurisdiction over English proficiency.

    California to my knowledge has the highest rate on non-English speaking drivers on the road.....
    Visit Chicago sometime...

    The largest community of Polish outside Poland:

    Chicago bills itself as the largest Polish city outside of Poland with approximately 1,100,000 people of Polish ethnicity in the Chicago metropolitan area, although some maintain that after Poland's entry into the EU, London, England is now likely to have more than double this [9]. Chicago's Polish presence is felt in the large number of Polish-American organizations located there; including the Polish Museum of America, the Polish American Association, the Polish National Alliance and the Polish Highlander's Alliance of North America. Chicago celebrates its Polish Heritage every Labor Day weekend at the Taste of Polonia Festival in Jefferson Park, attended by such political notables as President George H. W. Bush, Dick Cheney, Hadassah Lieberman, Congresswoman Melissa Bean, and Tipper Gore.[10] Illinois is also one of the few states that celebrates Casimir Pulaski Day due to the influence of this large population. http://www.polishbuzz.com/ is a well known and visited web site promoting Chicago Polonia with a comprehensive directory of Polish businesses.
    The Almanac of American Politics 2004 states that "Even today, in Archer Heights [a neighborhood of Chicago], you can scarcely go a block without hearing someone speaking Polish".
    In addition to the Polish we have Russian, Chinese, and a whole buch of other stuff including Hispanics...



    What would help, would be a national requirement for those who live and work here to become proficient at English in order to have any vehicle license from a Class M all the way up to an "A"......Hell...English should be required to get a job in this country, period......you can't work in Mexico unless you speak Spanish...You can't work in France unless you speak French...Why not here with English????
    You sure? I'm willing to bet every country has workers that do not speak the local languge. France recently had major riots due to immigration issues.

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/paris_riots/

    Media accounts of the riots that spread across France in the fall of 2005 lay the blame squarely on a racist society that has marginalized the children and grandchildren of North African immigrants.
    psanderson

    We must also remember that CA, although a CVSA member, is a different world in all areas of actions. If they put the non-English speaking drivers O/O/S there wouldn't be many trucks on the road
    You know that's quite an assumption.... You know what they say about ###uming don't you?

    Be safe...

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    As the Ozzies say.... "Thanks for the good oil".....

    At this point...even though I speak a little Spanish....I will refuse to speak Spanish from now on when I go to Mexico...after all.....fair is fair right?

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