International Prosatar/Maxxforce: Worthless junk!!!

Discussion in 'Trucks [ Eighteen Wheelers ]' started by diesel_weasel, Feb 7, 2010.

  1. diesel_weasel

    diesel_weasel Medium Load Member

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    Oct 6, 2008
    Rochester, MN
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    Here is an Honest review of a lease truck My boss put me in for a Few months. They were begging and crying for his business, and this is the kind of treatment we have gotten from them. Thankfully, next week, he is throwing the keys back at them and giving them the finger:

    Leave it to International to take a perfectly fine truck like the 9000 series and come out with a flimsy, plastic junkbox, The Prostar. And if you didn't like Internationals before, now you're really in for a treat .

    Now granted, it is smooth, quiet (for the most part), and can turn on a dime, but that's where the advantages end.

    The headlights automatically come on with the wipers-stupid idea!!!

    The shifter is akward shaped, blocks the brake knobs, and looks like it came out of a 1975 Chevy School Bus.

    The doors are extremely drafty, and bone chilling cold in winter.

    The warning Buzzer sounds like a scarecrow screaming in your ear.

    The seat or steering column constantly needs to be re-adjusted when entering/exiting the cab, one or the other, even if you're skinny.

    If you roll down the widows on a windy day, they won't reseal correctly when shutting them. The way the cab and fairings are shaped creates some weird kind of suction. If its the drivers widow, you can open the vent (smoker's) window to get it to shut. If it's the passenger window you're just screwed until you stop, unless you have a passenger/co driver.


    The sleeper is ok, mine is a midroof. It is a Prostar Premium but their is really nothing premium about it. Plenty of room for my stuff. But not enough room for tools, air chuck, oil jugs, chains ets in the side boxes. The wall trim in the sleeper looks like imitation felt sprayed onto cardboard. It scratches very easily.

    The clutch on my truck has a constant rattle when under load. It is a grease fitting somewhere on the linkage that gradually goes dry and get louder and louder until it gets greased again. At first I thought it was an engine knock. International claims (liars) that there is no fix. What a bunch of morons. International still uses a mechanical linkeage while most others use hydraulic or air.

    Jake brakes (on the Maxxforce 13) are useless, they won't even hold back an empty truck on a 6% grade. Take one of these death traps to the big hills out west with a heavy load and you WILL get your brakes cookin, no way around it.

    Had a molding/trim piece fall off the truck over 2 months ago, dealer has yet to replace it.

    The same air line that runs along the transmission has blew twice in less than 50,000 miles. The truck also has other slow air leaks that the dealer shop ignores or can't/won't bother fixing.

    Now, for the Maxxforce 13. Essentially If I'm not mistaken its the old C13 block with tooling from Caterpillar and some components from MAN of Europe. Someone should have told these three businesses that you need TORQUE to move a truck and get good Fuel Economy. When we first got the truck it was a complete gutless wonder with a 10 speed. only 430 HP. But worse even than some of the slow company truck I used to drive that had C13's. Due to the fact that the engine is such a gutless turd, They supposedly turned up the HP to 475 for free. I saw almost no difference.

    According to their website, the Maxxforce 13 has a maximum torque rating of 1700 LB/FT @1000-1200 RPM. And guess what, Our pre-2007 C15's that are turned up to 475-525 HP are getting the same Fuel mileage as this gutless wonder. Fuel economy on this truck has ranged from 7.2 at the highest (running east/midwest) to as low as 5.3 (running west/mountains/75 MPH states). Generally it averages probably 6.0 to 6.5 overall, unless you hit wind or have to climb some big hills. This is what happens when you have a small, wimpy 12.4 liter motor straining just to maintain highway speed.

    The only good thing about the MaxxForce is it doesn't use that idiotic urea injection (for now)

    All the HP in the world won't move this gutless pig. Sorry International, you blew it BIG TIME. Horsepower moves Race Cars, Torque moves big trucks. The lack of torque in the Maxxforce 13 will make you feel like you're driving for Stevens or USA truck.

    International also has the Nerve to downplay Freightliner (Cascadia), Volvo and Detroit Diesel in their advertisements. I have driven both Cascadia and Prostar and the Prostar is no good, even when compared to an old Freightliner. If you don't like Freightliner or Volvo, you will HATE the new Combinder.

    I drove a stripped down 2002 International 9200 for nearly 3 years and didn't have any of these problems.

    People, this is just one example of the kind of crap you get when you let liberals, hippies, and tree-huggers overun the government. You got what you voted for America. Are you sorry yet?
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2010
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  3. RickG

    RickG Road Train Member

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    Owensboro , KY
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    O/O's in particular should be aware Navistar as well as Daimler has moved most production will suffer . They expect you to spend more money for poor quality .
    Statements by Navistar's James Hebe .
    http://tinyurl.com/ylsjncy
    No self respecting American trucker should give Navistar any business . Make Hebe eat his words .
     
  4. Double L

    Double L Heavy Load Member

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    Sep 20, 2008
    Illinois
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    James Hebe.....He about ran Freightliner into the ground back in the 90's. Oh boy I feel sorry for International now. :biggrin_25513:
     
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  5. LBZ

    LBZ Road Train Member

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    Statements like what Hebe mentioned will kill resale values to even smaller fleets. Sounds as if we give him just enough rope, he will hang himself.
     
  6. RickG

    RickG Road Train Member

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    Volvo/Mack and PACCAR should make big posters quoting him and display them at their truck show booths . The UAW got Coca Cola to stipulate in purchase agreements all trucks will be manufactured in the U.S. .
    http://www.gastongazette.com/articles/duke-37270-mexico-energy.html
    UAW needs to push this more and have companies refuse to buy Mexican made trucks . Where's the solidarity ? A lot of union LTL carriers have Sterlings . What are they going to replace them with ?
    Teamsters should push for American made trucks .
     
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  7. LBZ

    LBZ Road Train Member

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    Thanks for the link, you have to love this...
    "Gary Casteel, UAW Region 8 director over 11 states including the Carolinas, said company officials told him that Mexican plants would not have any impact on U.S. production.
    Daimler is shifting production to Mexico, Casteel said, because it saves them $20,000 to $40,000 per truck, but none of that cost savings is passed on to the customers, he said. Efthimiou said Duke pays the same amount for its trucks, whether it's produced in Mexico or North Carolina."

    I remember reading where Cummins is currently moving their filtration mfg facility to Mexico too.

    Sorry for being so off topic with all this stuff, just irritating losing the last bits of mfg. we have left.
     
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  8. RickG

    RickG Road Train Member

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    Not off topic at all . The topic is the lack of quality in Navistar trucks . Hebe comes right out and states they will be built by inexperienced Mexicans . This is one area it wouldn't be hard to bring production back . More carriers and fleets need to be more like Duke and Coca Cola and only buy U.S. made trucks . It's just common business sense . The more Americans working , the more money gets spent at American businesses .
     
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  9. black_dog106

    black_dog106 Road Train Member

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    what he said! Goes both ways, the less Americans working, the less paying taxes and all the other BS.
     
  10. spork.man

    spork.man Light Load Member

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    Nov 2, 2009
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    Interesting review. I've met quite a few ProStar drivers who are happy with their trucks if not at least ambivalent in contrast with other trucks they've driven. Although we're primarily a Cummins shop at Central, I haven't heard much on the Maxxforce engines.

    While I'm a fan of old-school International 4-wheelers, I've been curious about their heavy trucks since just before I started driving a few months ago. Maxxforce aside, I think most of your gripes can be shared across the board with truck manufacturers. Most of the problems are not generally quality problems that you point out - they are design problems. It doesn't matter if a Mexican or American puts it together. Mexicans didn't choose the flimsy cardboard with spray-on felt. They also didn't design the door frames for the most part.

    I read the article on Hebe and he makes a lot of sense. It is a realistic look at the industry. Yes, these companies are moving jobs across a line on a map. But so what. Their purpose is to make money. Any owner op who finds a way to reduce their costs 25% and doesn't do it would be called an idiot. So why is this so different for Navistar, Daimler, Freightliner, or PACCAR? I'd hope they would do it.

    If you read what Hebe wrote, you would see that the biggest driver for these changes have nothing to do with trying to screw over the OO/Indie - it has to do with the nature of regime uncertainty and the burden of doing business imposed by a reckless regulatory state (at both a state and federal level). Hebe shows that the average cost of a 2010 model truck has gone up due to regulatory burden. Subtract the increase in savings from moving production over an imaginary line in the sand and you see the profit margin is far more narrow. Add in the cost of uncertainty of future market conditions, proposed changes in the labor market, and the increased demand for engineering products to meet future regulations and still eke out a profit, I think Navistar and Hebe are on-target.

    Hebe points out that yes, there probably will be some quality issues arise for Navistar. But so be it. It has nothing to do with Mexico or a Mexican's ability to perform a job. Even if Navistar landed a plant in Nebraska, they would face the same form of problems as they would in Mexico. That is the nature of introducing manufacturing to a labor market that is already tight. Note that Hebe states that they already have manufacturing done in Mexico - but the labor market is already tight in terms of people trained on the type of production needed.

    The nature of business is not to employ people; anyone who proposes such is trading on the Bastiat's broken-window fallacy. Should we employ people to break windows to keep the glass makers busy? It sounds like it makes sense. But it doesn't make much sense to the business owner who has his window broken. He loses the capital he could have spent on other needs and desires rather than being forced to replace the window.

    My final point is best put into words by Adam Smith: "It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker, that we can expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own interest"
     
  11. RickG

    RickG Road Train Member

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    The nature of a business may not be to employ people but unemployed people don't buy much and what happens to businesses then . How many American businesses are going to benefit from paychecks given to Mexicans ? How many public services have already been cut because of tax revenue lost when homes are foreclosed and factories go idle ?
    Coca Cola and Duke Energy should have others follow their example . Mexicans don't buy Coke bottled here and they don't have their electricity being shut off because they lost their job at Freightliner plant .
    Your point about Navistar putting a plant in Nebraska is senseless . They don't need to open new plants , just keep plants with experienced workers going .
    People say "foreign " cars like Honda shouldn't be bought because the profits go to a Japanese company even if Americans are employed to build them .
    Why buy a foreign made truck built by foreign workers . Navistar and Daimler had no concern not only for their employees but none for the communities and vendors supported by their plants . The Canadian government is especially upset with Navistar for taking bailout money a few years back then moving production to Mexico . They are considering requiring Navistar to pay the bailout money back .
     
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