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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by spork.man View Post
    Interesting review. I've met quite a few ProStar drivers who are happy with their trucks if not at least ambivalent in contrast with other trucks they've driven. Although we're primarily a Cummins shop at Central, I haven't heard much on the Maxxforce engines.

    While I'm a fan of old-school International 4-wheelers, I've been curious about their heavy trucks since just before I started driving a few months ago. Maxxforce aside, I think most of your gripes can be shared across the board with truck manufacturers. Most of the problems are not generally quality problems that you point out - they are design problems. It doesn't matter if a Mexican or American puts it together. Mexicans didn't choose the flimsy cardboard with spray-on felt. They also didn't design the door frames for the most part.

    I read the article on Hebe and he makes a lot of sense. It is a realistic look at the industry. Yes, these companies are moving jobs across a line on a map. But so what. Their purpose is to make money. Any owner op who finds a way to reduce their costs 25% and doesn't do it would be called an idiot. So why is this so different for Navistar, Daimler, Freightliner, or PACCAR? I'd hope they would do it.

    If you read what Hebe wrote, you would see that the biggest driver for these changes have nothing to do with trying to screw over the OO/Indie - it has to do with the nature of regime uncertainty and the burden of doing business imposed by a reckless regulatory state (at both a state and federal level). Hebe shows that the average cost of a 2010 model truck has gone up due to regulatory burden. Subtract the increase in savings from moving production over an imaginary line in the sand and you see the profit margin is far more narrow. Add in the cost of uncertainty of future market conditions, proposed changes in the labor market, and the increased demand for engineering products to meet future regulations and still eke out a profit, I think Navistar and Hebe are on-target.

    Hebe points out that yes, there probably will be some quality issues arise for Navistar. But so be it. It has nothing to do with Mexico or a Mexican's ability to perform a job. Even if Navistar landed a plant in Nebraska, they would face the same form of problems as they would in Mexico. That is the nature of introducing manufacturing to a labor market that is already tight. Note that Hebe states that they already have manufacturing done in Mexico - but the labor market is already tight in terms of people trained on the type of production needed.

    The nature of business is not to employ people; anyone who proposes such is trading on the Bastiat's broken-window fallacy. Should we employ people to break windows to keep the glass makers busy? It sounds like it makes sense. But it doesn't make much sense to the business owner who has his window broken. He loses the capital he could have spent on other needs and desires rather than being forced to replace the window.

    My final point is best put into words by Adam Smith: "It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker, that we can expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own interest"

    Bottom line, I don't care where the darn thing is made, if its junk, its junk and there's no getting around that. I don't care if it's made in Canada, Zimbabwe, Laos, or Tibet. A poor quality turd is simply that, a poor quality turd. And there is no excuse for the poor quality when the previous design was much better.

    On top of things they (International) brag about how many millions of dollars they stuck into new designs and new engines. My old 9200 C12 did not freeze me to death on a cold windy day, among the other poor quality design problems I mentioned on the prostar.

    Going from a 9200 to a prostar is like going from a Lexus to a Pinto.
    Last edited by bullhaulerswife; 06.04.2010 at 01.49 PM. Reason:: removed reference to f word

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  3. #12
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    That is one of the reasons I don't like Freightliner because of the quality and where it's built. I use to like International but with this being said I won't be buying an International or Freightliner. I'll stick to a Paccar product if I was in the market for a truck.

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  5. #13
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    How many transport jobs alone are lost due to factories building something across the fence? Trucks may have to be transported from south of the border to dealerships, but how much is lost on parts & other stock materials for the mfg. facility?

    I guess spork man is right, they would be fools not to do something like this & we have been fools to watch this happen time & time again for the past 30 years & have attitudes like what was mentioned above.

    If what was said about Canada & the bailout given to Navistar is true, I hope the Canadians smack them with max interest on every cent given. Bring new meaning to the term max-force!

    I think the bigger point & question we all must ask, when do we draw the line & say no more! Are you as an o/o really going to consider supporting a corporation who flat out says your time has passed & has ditched those whose support built their company?

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  7. #14
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    I've read that the Prostar was a make or break deal for International because they invested so much money in it. If that is the case then I don't feel sorry for them because they shouldn't have put their eggs in one basket. These truck manufactures didn't have to come out with new models. They simply could have lengthen the hood a little longer and they wouldn't have invested as much money as they did. Look at Pete and KW, they didn't redesign their trucks except the hood and other minor stuff. They simply took what they had and made some changes to them and made new models that are compliant and I doubt they even invest in nearly as much money as International and Freightliner. I still feel Kenworth is superior when it comes to producing new and better products. At least Paccar can make a sexy looking truck.

  8. #15
    Road Train Member Heavyd's Avatar
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    I have been an International tech for 15 years. I have to agree with a lot of what the op. I still like the Prostar, I feel they could have come out with a better quality of interior panels. Overall if they would just increase the quality of the wiring they would have a really good truck. The Maxxforce is another story. As a tech, this engine is the by-far, the most labor intensive engine to work on I have ever seen!!! As an o/o that has one that is out of warranty I really feel bad if anything goes wrong simply because the engine is so complex. I can't believe they couldn't have come up with something better than that. For those who have seen one, you know what I am talking about. The Maxxforce 13 has nothing to do with CAT. That is the Maxxforce 15. The 13 is a joint effort between International and MANN. Mostly MANN.
    Back to the Prostar, the headlights on with wipers is only a safety thing, it is all programming, you can turn that feature off if you like. The doors do need to be redesigned. They are too flimsy. They are finding that the air resistance at highway speeds is pulling the mirrors and causing the doors to pull away from the door jam. There really isn't any adjustment once the door starts to get warped. You can set the striker inward a bit and hammer the runner the weather stripping slips onto outward to get the tightest seal possible. Not sure about the window/suction thing. The clutch linkage is very clunky, some rattle really bad, and others not at all. Very inconsistent. I would have to see it to comment on why or how to fix it. Maxxforce engine doesn't have a traditional "engine brake". It has an exhaust brake. I agree totally, very lame, they might aswell not even included it. I have driven several different trucks and it is very hard to feel it doing anything. International should be ashamed of that one!!! I did hear next years Maxxforce will include an actual engine compression brake, so we'll see. Some interior panels are very hard to get simply because they don't make enough spares for repair work. The air lines are all plastic/nylon with plastic quick connect fittings, very cheap, easy to assemble, that is why they use them. The slow leaks are very frustrating for you and us too. To be honest, I really don't care about slow leaks, what's it hurting? Most trucks do leak. Warranty doesn't pay us to find slow leaks. There are several connections in the dash that require your dash to be taken apart. Not worth it in my opinion. Those dash panels can only be taken off and put back on a couple of times before the little tabs start to break and weaken, that is how you get rattlely and noisy dashes. The quick connect fittings aren't a perfect seal. With temperature changes and expansion and contraction the seal surfaces do shift a bit and they will leak. Can be very hard to find. Once the truck is inside and warm, will not leak. There are always customers that demand the most from their truck and are very very picky. There is nothing wrong with that. I have always thought Internationals to be a great, middle of the pack, average work truck. They aren't Pete's! I have worked on them all, as a mechanic, Internationals are the best to diagnose and work on.

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  10. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by LBZ View Post
    How many transport jobs alone are lost due to factories building something across the fence? Trucks may have to be transported from south of the border to dealerships, but how much is lost on parts & other stock materials for the mfg. facility?

    I guess spork man is right, they would be fools not to do something like this & we have been fools to watch this happen time & time again for the past 30 years & have attitudes like what was mentioned above.

    If what was said about Canada & the bailout given to Navistar is true, I hope the Canadians smack them with max interest on every cent given. Bring new meaning to the term max-force!

    I think the bigger point & question we all must ask, when do we draw the line & say no more! Are you as an o/o really going to consider supporting a corporation who flat out says your time has passed & has ditched those whose support built their company?
    This article is rather dated but I haven't found anything recent .
    Navistar International Corp. "will pay" if hundreds of job cuts at its truck plant in southwestern Ontario violate the terms of a government bailout agreement it signed five years ago, Economic Development Minister Michael Bryant vowed Thursday.
    The Illinois-based company (NYSE: NAV) received millions of taxpayer dollars to keep open the plant in Chatham, Ont., and will have to pay some of that back if it fails to live up to its end of the deal, Bryant said
    http://www.wheels.ca/article/460459

  11. #17
    Road Train Member Powell-Peralta's Avatar
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    We just got 2 new prostars in, but i have yet to ride in them.

    My current ride is the 9400 which i like. My only complaint is it is noisy. So, if the prostar is quiet, like everyone says then so much the better. So, you can see, i generally don't have a problem with international and think they are ok. The exception is the styling atrocity, which i don't know the model number, but it looks somewhat like a pt cruser.

    The bed seems huge, but there's little left for other storage. So, when it comes to sleepers, i favor freighliner.

  12. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by diesel_weasel View Post
    Bottom line, I don't care where the ###### thing is made, if its junk, its junk and there's no getting around that. I don't care if it's made in Canada, Zimbabwe, Laos, or Tibet. A poor quality turd is simply that, a poor quality turd. And there is no excuse for the poor quality when the previous design was much better.

    On top of things they (International) brag about how many millions of dollars they stuck into new designs and new engines. My old 9200 C12 did not freeze me to death on a cold windy day, among the other poor quality design problems I mentioned on the prostar.

    Going from a 9200 to a prostar is like going from a Lexus to a Pinto.
    Hey no reason to bash the ole pinto-bomb. Short of the whole exploding gas tank, the was nothing wrong with them. They did exactly as advertised. Plus stuff a 302 under the hood. You got places in a hurry. Pinto owners stand and unite!

  13. #19
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    i drive an 09 prostar with the small sleeper, cummings 455 and a 13 spd. pull smooth bore tanker's. really like the truck. much better ride, more room inside and 100 times quieter then the 06 378 pete i was driving. great company trucks!

  14. #20
    Kinghunter The Challenger's Avatar
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    I think moving the production to Mexico was the biggest mistake International ever made. Had International stuck to production in the USA, everyone would be happy and i am almost positive that the quality would be much better. From what I have seen the quality of Prostar is on par with a Freightliner Cascadia.

    KH

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