epa2010 are much tighter standart than euro5 its more close to euro6,so we could expect that international will use 99,9 exhaust and 0.01 air,and the milage will be 1mpg.I bow down to EPA

All systems can be defeated. The hardest but smartest way is by hacking the ECM, the stone-age way is to cheat sensors with resistors and other electronics.

actually, that is not true. MAN and Scania have failed miserably with their EGR-only solutions to Euro 5. MAN's engine is over 1 year late and is still probably a year away from delivery. Scania had to recall most if not all of their EGR-only engines already due to excessive heat issues and poor fuel economy.

Besides, the Euro5 standards are about the same as EPA07.....by the time Euro6 comes around there is absolutely NO way around SCR unless you're willing to cut your fuel economy in half.

As for Cummins...their statements about 5-7% fuel economy gains are highly suspect as they cite experience in Europe that was all medium duty and against much less stringent emissions targets than EPA2010.

Detroit Diesel and Volvo seemed to have it right all along....and Cummins, to their credit, is wise enough to own up to it and reverse course before it's too late. International is off in no man's land and will surely reverse course themselves soon.....of course they will blame it on Cummins since Cummins is their #1 engine supplier.

As a manager of a company with trucks I have studied this issue pretty hard lately...and even had the chance to learn about the European experience while on a trip over there. As much as I hated the idea of going SCR in 2010, I've come to the conclusion that the fuel economy gain is too much to turn down. I'm just glad that we'll have a true competition for the best SCR system in 2010 between Detroit Diesel, Volvo, and Cummins. It should be really interesting.

M.A.N. will show they euro5(egr) in september, production will start in 09

5-7% better fuel economy than EGR for the same emissions levels I would consider to be pretty conservative given what we know about EGR fuel economy and performance.

Apparently Cummins had been developing an SCR for ISX in parallel with EGR just in case. CES has also been doing a lot of work for DAF...with PACCAR building an engine plant in the US it makes you wonder, you think Cummins might be afraid of what is in store if they were to try to sell an engine with really bad fuel economy in 2010?

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Cummins had to make a choice 5 years ago on which way to go...SCR or EGR. At that time, they were on the outside looking at DAimler, they were falling out of favor at Volvo, and they were a small share at Paccar. So they knew that unless they owned a truck manufacturer, they would have to develop a stand alone system that could go into any manufacturer's trucks relatively easily.....even if it cost them fuel economy. That was a good move on their part.

The problem in their strategy came when diesel prices rose to over $4.00 per gallon and then suddenly the fuel economy penalty became too steep to be commercially feasible. Cummins flat out gambled and lost. Now they are behind the others in SCR system development and integration. I don't care what they say about working with DAF in Europe...those are ISBs and ISCs......in other words- not a lot in common with the performance and demands of engines that are 450+ horsepower. Cummins is a very good company and they will play catch up quickly...but the folks at Detroit Diesel and Volvo have a pretty big head start on them with high horsepower engines already....plus those two brands are integrated with the truck OEMs in a way that Cummins never can be and there will be system integration issues.

As for M.A.N......they will debut a Euro5 EGR only engine in September....but it won't be available until 2009 and it will only be available in the lower horsepowers (the ones where the transcontinental truckers aren't spec'ing). Besides....Euro5 is the same as EPA'07....all the North American engine companies already meet the equivalent of Euro5 with EGR only. So, MAN's feat is really no big deal at all. Once Euro 6 comes around even the staunchest Scania and MAN believer knows that you can't get there without SCR. Just like Cummins has found out with EPA2010.....unless customers are willing to have their fuel economy drop by 10 to 20%.

The egr flow for 2010 would have been more along the lines of 40-50% exhaust gas to meet emissions. They could have met emissions with just egr, but you would not like the fuel economy or performance. So the customers that you would have gained by not having to use the scr system would not offset the number that you would lose due to poor performance and poor fuel economy. Performance for the ISX was minimal at best for any engine rating with that much flow. With an engine that has that much egr flow the turbo would do a turbo "fart" everytime you let up on the throttle no matter how slight the decrease in rpm is it will still do it. The midrange group, ISB, ISC, and ISL, have all been testing with Urea here in the states for a number of years. Cummins is not as far behind the ball as many would think. All of this means that the price of trucks will go up alot. Am I glad to see them go this way? Yes and no. Yes that the perfomance of the engines will increase and no because Urea is some nasty stuff. You take one wiff of that stuff and it will stay with you for a day if not two days.

The reasons why I'll never buy a new truck keep multiplying.

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euro5,6..... epa07,10...... They want the diesel exhaust to be cleaner than mountain air ,soon we will use diesels in the hospitals as a oxigen suply.