Can i not get a hazmat endorsement with a CDL permit?

It apparently wasn't pointless when you decided to correct my statement which was based on my training from the biggest bulk tanker company in the country and my puny few years doing this for a living and supported by the fed's own chart.

What you are saying is true for discreet packaging (that almost always means van, reefer, flatbed), but doe not apply to tankers, which are bulk containers. Lesson 5: Hazardous Materials Involvement - Bulk Packaging
Bulk packages must be placarded unless cleaned and purged. The same rule applies to IBC totes and tanker trailers, unit load containers (airplanes), ships. Nobody in the industry is running out to yank placards even if they had x-ray vision and could tell the quantity inside.

 

Yes, one might even say "placards stay on the trailer until washed out or purged." And you need the BOL or copy of the last BOL for the product traveling with that empty, but placarded, trailer.

 

I did some quick and dirty math. 5000 pounds of almost any liquid is going to be somewhere around 500 to 700 gallons, DEPENDING! I used to blow off portland cement tankers and could tell they were empty then take a flashlight and go look. I would imagine 500 gallons would be noticeable. Because you can't open some hazmat up I would assume if you had 25,000 pounds of a substance the receiver should have some way to tell they got what they paid for. It's been a while for me, but I suspect most receivers can tell how much product they unloaded. This is me spitballing, I honestly don't know.

 

Water, milk, and other food grade materials are commonly hauled in tankers, so there are plenty of drivers who have a tanker endorsement without HazMat.

 

And the fines apply to the company and driver individually. Fines for drivers can be $10,000 for serious HM violations.

 

I've hauled portland cement, Fly ash, and even water. I helped a guy contracted to fill an Olympic size swimming pool. He was prohibited by the local town from using their water to fill it. I hauled that water for almost 75 miles and still had to get another load.

About 25 years ago I came close to accepting a job hauling ammonia. The man was so short drivers he was having to drive several days a week. The pay was good, but I just did not want to get into that crap.

 

I got more heated in this thread than I intended. I think I understand @Moose1958 point. He is correct in that the definition of HazMat material DOES consider the material AND the Reportable Quantity RQ of that material. We never disagreed on that point. My point is while what he is saying is accurate and from the regulations. That definition of HM is not used in any part of liquid tanker HM operations in my training or experience. His point DOES have application for dry van, reefer, flatbed trailer where it is possible to have discreet and different freight of various amounts on one trailer. Liquid bulk tankers have to follow the FMCSA regs but have unique circumstances. In practice, and in the regs liquid bulk tankers remain placarded once having been loaded with HazMat materisl, after that material has been delivered, and until the empty trailer is washed/purged of that material. At that point the trailer is clean, no placards required now.

TL;DR @Moose1958 is arguing about regs as applied to van/reefer/flatbed applications while I'm am arguing regs as applied to liquid bulk containers, totes, railcars, etc. I think that is a fair replay and I'm open to anyone showing me other info if I'm wrong. I've already posted a link and text from the FMCSA supporting my claim.

 

I want to add that I appreciate reading through the discussion between the two of you. The amount of information shared is invaluable. It's not often that I have a placarded load, but once in a while I will be dispatched on a load of paint, or other freight that is both HazMat and reefer.

 

I read through both of your entire postings two times. I did not take it to be heated at all! I saw several proffesional knowledgable Men with different perspectives, stating facts as they are related to their particular areas of expertise. I saw a respectful discussion with facts and views supported by regulations, perfectly explaining the subject and fine points, on a level a person such as myself can undestand and will remember. Very Good!!