Anyone buy placards?

Discussion in 'Experienced Truckers' Advice' started by camionneur, Oct 5, 2016.

  1. Ke6gwf

    Ke6gwf Medium Load Member

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    But 49 CFR simply says that any trailer with Hazmat in it must be placarded (if it meets the threshold.
    It says nothing that anyone can put off that responsibility to some future time or person!

    Which means that if I load a trailer with Hazmat today, whether I plan to store it for a year, or have you haul it next week, 49 CFR says it has to be placarded

    So if I decide not to, and leave it unmarked until next week, I am afoul of 49 CFR, even if nothing else, and whether OSHA has a specific rule of their own, they can also enforce 49 CFR!
     
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  3. camionneur

    camionneur Road Train Member

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    The thing is, when you say "if it meets the threshold", you are referring to a requirement "otherwise provided" from the general rule, which initially says any amount has to be placarded, yet it is otherwise provided that there's a threshold where it wouldn't here.

    Then to say that even though affixing placards is not stated as a shipper requirement in this situation, you are relying on a premise that the general rule cannot be "otherwise provided" for, except in fact, it is otherwise provided that only the carrier has to affix them there.

    The general rule says upfront "unless otherwise provided", because it doesn't apply to every situation, and this is one of them (like where "any" amount of hazmat may not have to be placarded). The general rule also does not say when it must be placarded, or by whom, because that's what the other rules are for. You might assume that 'when' would correspond to any amount being in a trailer, but then not any amount has to be placarded at times, just like another rule states that the shipper must at least provide those at the time in which it is up to the carrier to affix them, if not sooner. If the trailer had to have placards affixed by the shipper, prior to the carrier doing so, it would surely say so. We're talking about highway transport here, and going beyond that it looks like we're talking about OSHA standards, which also do not say that.
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2016
  4. Ke6gwf

    Ke6gwf Medium Load Member

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    "
    § 172.504 General placarding requirements.
    (a) General. Except as otherwise provided in this subchapter, each bulk packaging, freight container, unit load device, transport vehicle or rail car containing any quantity of a hazardous material must be placarded on each side and each end with the type of placards specified in tables 1 and 2 of this section and in accordance with other placarding requirements of this subpart, including the specifications for the placards named in the tables and described in detail in §§ 172.519 through 172.560."

    Except as otherwise provided for in "this subchapter".

    In other words, unless this subchapter gives you an exception, you must placard the containers and vehicles, according to the thresholds and details given in this subpart.

    If your reading is correct, then it could also be put off to the train engineer to placard the traincar, or the truck driver to placard the bulk pack or liquid tote.

    But no, it keeps it all contained, that if 49 CFR says that a certain type and quantity of Hazmat must be placarded, it has to happen no matter the container or vehicle it is in, and nothing to do with shipping either!
     
  5. camionneur

    camionneur Road Train Member

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    The section symbol § is not a subchapter, and .504 is a general requirement section referring to other sections in the subchapter, which would be 172. If not, why would general requirements otherwise provide for themselves in the same section? That would be what another section was for, I'd say (such as §172.506). Makes for tedious reading either way... :biggrin_2552:

    That, and the hazardous materials guidebook seems to reflect such a format, where it doesn't refer to placarding by shipper as a general rule (based on that section).

    Yeah, there it is: Title 49 → Subtitle B → Chapter I → Subchapter C → Part 172 → Subpart F → §172.504

    Wild guess on my "part" there... close enough. :blah5: So the section is .504 of part 172 of subchapter c (and subpart f includes sections 504, 506, etc).

    Well, as orders of operation go (dialectically), further reading for this might be found in other parts of the subchapter too... kind of an odd format (back and forth), or not all that unusual in this forum type o' context, section 8 (?), page eight, whatever. The general section did include some other provisions too (like the weight threshold), so unless "subchapter" was a typo, the rest could be stated anywhere in the hazardous materials regulations.

    Again though, I think the guidebook exists so we can read what is pertinent from the CFRs in order. Looks like there are also several OSHA guidebooks out there... wonder which one that's in. Ah, there it is: OSHA General Industry Regulations Book, 29 CFR 1910 ("Make compliance with dense government safety regulations simple..."). Who knew?

    As far as the hazmat pocketbook goes, it says large freight containers (640 cubic feet or more) must be placarded by the shipper, although the CFRs differentiate between a freight container and a transport vehicle (which a 53' one is said to be 3816 cubic feet), so that's an example of a separate and more strict part/section in which "placarding" would be on them (not the train engineer, or whomever transports the freight container). I'm sure it mentions bulk transport too, and just depends on what a particular section says in the CFR (which includes the OSHA stuff, unlike my pocketbooks—same goes for the FMCSA one that also sources 49 CFR and leaves out 29 CFR, in the chapter on hazmat).

    Slightly different format in 29 CFR too:
    Title 29 → Subtitle B → Chapter XVII → Part 1910 → Subpart Z → §1910.1201

    Goes from chapter to part, skipping subchapter. Then the subparts span a number of sections of the part. :Wheel: I'm gonna go back to studying lug nuts... and say a chapter is like a tractor, which can have a trailer (subchapter), and each have parts in common (like wheels), which consist of sections (tires, rims), that may be separated into subparts (nuts).
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2016
  6. Toothpick1

    Toothpick1 Light Load Member

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    I'm glad I have a new carton of popcorn.
     
    Numb Thanks this.
  7. wsyrob

    wsyrob Trucker Forum STAFF Staff Member

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    This is probably your best option. I believe you can get ticketed for having placards in your truck cab that aren't reflected on your bill of lading. Chances are slim that DOT would ever see them if stored out of sight but that's what they told us in company hazmat training.
     
  8. MACK E-6

    MACK E-6 Moderator Staff Member

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    Where did you hear this? I'd like to look into it further.
     
  9. ethos

    ethos Road Train Member

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    Unsecured in the cab, i.e just thrown in the door pocket. My placard kit is in a rather ridiculously secure nylon bag.
     
  10. GasHauler

    GasHauler Master FMCSA Interpreter

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    I don't know what book you read but it's wrong. It shocks me to see so many drivers pulling hazmat and not even know where to get the correct information. I guess they feel they just have to guess and that will be all right. Trucking has nothing to do with buildings. None of the rules or regulations apply to trucks that are written for stationary objects. As soon as a truck is loaded and is required to be placarded, placards must be supplied to the load. If not they must be attached to the trailer on all for sides. (with some leeway on the front). It's that cut and dry. The shipper must provide the placard or the load doesn't move. Can I suggest a very good reading for you, CFR 49 Transportation parts 100 to 177. It deal a lot with hazmat, so much you'll get sick of it. But we are bound to it if we have any hazmat loaded on our trucks. Then if you what to move on and build a tanker or any other type to hold hazmat feel free to go on to CFR 49 Transportation parts 178 to 199. Sorry just busting your chops trying to keep you out of trouble.
     
    Ke6gwf Thanks this.
  11. lcfd15

    lcfd15 Medium Load Member

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    Okay so according to your findings and way of thinking, you will refuse a preloaded hazmat trailer until the shipper goes out and affixes the proper placards? Because once again, NOWHERE in 49 cfr does it state shipper responsibility. Also if that's the case I know quite a bunch of companies, including Sherwin Williams, that are in violation.
     
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