Can we talk about the Detroit Bull Gear?

Discussion in 'Trucks [ Eighteen Wheelers ]' started by Hanadarko, Mar 27, 2012.

  1. Terry D Decker

    Terry D Decker Bobtail Member

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    Feb 6, 2017
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    If I replace those timken bearings how mutch would i torque the main nut to load the bearings
     
  2. Ramncum

    Ramncum Bobtail Member

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    Dec 27, 2016
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    ..........where did you read all that at.......
     
  3. Ramncum

    Ramncum Bobtail Member

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    Dec 27, 2016
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    .........where did you get that crap from?
     
  4. Cowpie1

    Cowpie1 Road Train Member

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    Kellogg, IA
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    There was a post or two way back where someone came up with some idea that Detroit 60 needed a inflame or bull gear early. It was pretty well debunked quickly. I currently have 661,000 on my remanned 60 and it is no where near needing anything like inframe, bearings, bull gear, etc. I do regular oil sampling at each oil change and track all the trends and patterns and this engine has virtually the same wear numbers it did at 100,000 miles. And it only uses about 2 qt of oil in 22,500 miles. If anything inside was getting near replacement, wear numbers would have started to elevate from the trend line. Bearings like on the bull gear rarely just go out. There are warning signs in the wear numbers in the oil samples that give a clue that one needs to take a look at things. A bull gear bearing can go out all of a sudden with no warning, just like any other component can, but it is extremely rare.

    The problem is, very few people actually take the time and effort to do regular oil sampling at each oil change and compare results over time to pick up on variations starting to happen. Of course, it is easier to blame the component than it is to blame oneself for not doing what should have been done.
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2017
  5. Ramncum

    Ramncum Bobtail Member

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    Dec 27, 2016
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    I sample, run donaldson blues, amsoil bypass and Schaeffers, we have multiple 60 series over 1.2m with no build or bull gear on dino with 20k mi changes in local trucks.....long live detroit!
     
    TheDudeAbides Thanks this.
  6. Cowpie1

    Cowpie1 Road Train Member

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    There ya go! I run Schaeffer oil myself and sample each time. Someone is going to have a hard time convincing me the 60 is a poor engine. I typically do 20K to 22.5K oil changes also... and surprise, surprise.... I use Donaldson blue filters also! But I use a FS2500 as opposed to a Amsoil bypass.
     
  7. Ramncum

    Ramncum Bobtail Member

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    Dec 27, 2016
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    What parameter in your oil analysis Is indicating 22k oil changes with that setup, I don't have enough miles on my 3 systems to have an oci yet
     
  8. Cowpie1

    Cowpie1 Road Train Member

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    I started out with the 15K recommended by Detroit on this DDEC IV pre-egr 60 for a few times. That recommendation is still the same in the latest Detroit Lubricating Oils, Filters, and Fuels manual. I then took it to 20K and changed/tested a few times. Just gradual, consistent trend line variance from the 15K intervals. I then went to 25K, and did a couple. I found that at 25K, while there was not some wild accelerated wear going on, there was some accelerated wear outside the normal trend line, and the TBN was depleting much faster, indicating that acids were building up at a faster rate. Acids are always a part of used oil since they come from combustion, but it is the rate they build and how fast they deplete TBN that must be tracked. Correspondingly, nitration was going up at a faster rate than the normal trend, which mirrored the more rapid TBN depletion. So I backed off to 22.5K miles and did a couple of oil changes and samples. That seemed to be the right level, as it followed the pattern from the lower intervals about the same. So that is where I have settled in on my oil changes. Ever since, the samples have been as consistent as the sun rising in the east every morning.

    The oil was still technically "good" at 25K, as far as lab analysis goes, but based on the trend lines in all the samples, 25K was where the engine and the oil were starting to have a food fight. I have learned over the years, and advocated, that analyzing used oil samples is as much a art form as it is a science. Let the samples "talk" to you and hear the conversation going on between the oil and the engine. The OCI you reach could very well be different than mine. No two engines are perfectly identical.
     
    BoxCarKidd Thanks this.
  9. Ramncum

    Ramncum Bobtail Member

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    Dec 27, 2016
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    Thanks for the response, iv been researching for months on all this, I am running schaeffer 9000 currently on 3 of 10 trucks. Are you changing all 3 filters at 22.5 also. The oldest system only has 10k on it and was installed 30 days ago on a local truck, one got wrecked the day after install and just got going again , and I just installed a 3rd bmk30 amsoil bypass yesterday.I sent out a 10k sample on Wednesday. I have ran 40k on rotella t6 with the samples and 3 filter swaps, Tbn was at 2.5 iron at 75 and lead at 15. That was my test truck for reasearch it is a glider 12.7 with 200k on it. I am going to continue my " research" I enjoy it and will learn a lot in the next year from my trucks, we haul heavy , run hard and short trips in heavy traffic. You really can't run a truck much harder than we do
     
  10. Cowpie1

    Cowpie1 Road Train Member

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    Yes, I change all 3 filters at oil change. The Amsoil is a different bypass than I have and has a larger capacity, so it could be worth keeping on longer, but I have never been fond of leaving a filter full of used oil on when I change out the sump. Just me, not judging what others do.

    On the 40K interval you mentioned, TBN has dropped too low. Check the Detroit lube manual. TBN warning limit is 1/3 what it started at. Most CJ-4 oils will start at 10. 1/3 is 3.33. Iron at 75 is more than I am comfortable with, but is well inside the range of what Detroit says is acceptable. At 40K, I would expect that along with the level of lead. At 22.5K, I typically have iron at 17-18 and lead at 3-4.

    The main problem with TBN depletion, is that as TBN depletes, TAN (total acid number) rises. Most UOA's do not test for TAN, but can if one is willing to pay the price for the additional test which is almost the same price as the normal UOA test cost. As TAN level rises, and TBN decreases, the oil should be changed at the point where their levels meet. Without a TAN test, industry tribologists have a general guideline of 1/3 the TBN that the oil started with is the limit, which is the recommendation by Detroit in their manual. if TAN level gets higher than TBN level, acids will start doing their nasty work against internal components. TBN is what keep them from doing that.

    If you do not have one, here is a link you can get the PDF of the 2017 Detroit lube manual. Lots of good info and guidelines.

    https://ddcsn-ddc.freightliner.com/cps/rde/xbcr/ddcsn/DDC-SVC-BRO-0001.pdf
     
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