I am the transportation manager for a construction company. I have 23 years of OTR and am not just asking a random question. Also, Yes I did search but I can't quite find what I am looking for.
We have multiple 1/2 ton pickups. There is a question if the construction workers who are assigned to the pickups need to fill out a DOT log every day. Sometimes they will travel to another city to work but once there they just go from the hotel to the job site and back. Most times they won't leave the 100 mile radius from where they start the morning.
The trucks are dodge 1500 short beds with company logo, DOT and SC(dust control) numbers on the side. Sometimes they will have a small enclosed or flat trailer with them. We do not "sell" anything or haul for other people or companies. We do not own anything larger than these trucks.
I do not feel that they are needed but our safety dept thinks we do. The trucks are registered as Commercial because they are owned by the company and not used for personal use. The trucks are light but when we tow a trailer they will be over 10,001 pounds and that is her basis for thinking we need log books.
We want to be compliant so if you have an answer if you could point me towards a reference either yes or no, that I can print for her that would be great.
(Also, I have been on this board for quite a while using my personal account. I just wanted to have a user name for work.)
Construction workers filling out Logs?
Page 1 of 3
I am confused.
I have been given the task of getting a company i now work for legal and up to current standards re; owning and operating 'Not For Hire' CMVs.
We have 3 CDL holders and a few others without CDLs.
We have 3 Chevy 3500 Duallys that empty are over 10001 pounds and pull trailers that are close to 10k themselves.
We also have a 30000 pound 10 wheeler, and a 25900 pound 6 wheeler.
We also rent 6 wheelers often.
Here's the problem. Conflicting info says we do not need CDLs to drive the Chevys and the 6 wheelers.
Conflicting info also shows we are supposed to have log books for ANYONE, CDL holder or not, who operates any of the duallys or 6 wheelers.
Of course I and the other Class A driver do keep our logs up to date, but the other drivers (non-cdl) have been stopped in :
a- a dually with a trailer in Oklahoma and was fined for no CDL, no log book, no medical card.
b- Driver with no CDL driving 6 wheel Hino empty crosses scale in WV and is asked for paperwork. He has none. Is also told to have CDL, log book and medical card.
So. The questions are:
Is a log book required for ANY driver, CDL or not, driving ANYTHING over 10001 pounds?
Does that mean any driver of any vehicle over 10001 pounds must have CDL and Medical Card?
According to FMCSA, over 10001 pounds requires log book.
Nothing under 260001 requires CDL.
Who's correct? What is the status Quo here for my company so i can direct them to get CDLs and/or Med cards. Do they need log books for every vehicle, even the duallys?
Thanks for helping.
Click to expand...
Ok, let's start with the CDL requirement first. This is the definition for the CDL license. My guess is your Gross Vehicle Weight Rating of your 3500 dualy's were around 12 or 13,000 GVWR. If your combination weight GWRV exceeded 26,001 lbs and the trailer you were towing was in excess of 10,000 lbs a Class A CDL IS REQUIRED.
Commercial motor vehicle (CMV) means a motor vehicle or combination of motor vehicles used in commerce to transport passengers or property if the motor vehicle (a) Has a gross combination weight rating of 11,794 kilograms or more (26,001 pounds or more) inclusive of a towed unit(s) with a gross vehicle weight rating of more than 4,536 kilograms (10,000 pounds); or
(b) Has a gross vehicle weight rating of 11,794 or more kilograms (26,001 pounds or more); or
(c) Is designed to transport 16 or more passengers, including the driver; or
(d) Is of any size and is used in the transportation of hazardous materials as defined in this section.
Commercial motor vehicle means any self-propelled or towed motor vehicle used on a highway in interstate commerce to transport passengers or property when the vehicle (1) Has a gross vehicle weight rating or gross combination weight rating, or gross vehicle weight or gross combination weight, of 4,536 kg (10,001 pounds) or more, whichever is greater; or
(2) Is designed or used to transport more than 8 passengers (including the driver) for compensation; or
(3) Is designed or used to transport more than 15 passengers, including the driver, and is not used to transport passengers for compensation; or
(4) Is used in transporting material found by the Secretary of Transportation to be hazardous under 49 U.S.C. 5103 and transported in a quantity requiring placarding under regulations prescribed by the Secretary under 49 CFR, subtitle B, chapter I, subchapter C.
2) Next all drivers that operate vehicles over 10,000 lbs require a medical certificate. Here's the regulation :
391.41 Physical qualifications for drivers.
(a)(1)(i) A person subject to this part must not operate a commercial motor vehicle unless he or she is medically certified as physically qualified to do so, and, except as provided in paragraph (a)(2) of this section, when on-duty has on his or her person the original, or a copy, of a current medical examiners certificate that he or she is physically qualified to drive a commercial motor vehicle. NOTE: Effective December 29, 1991, the FMCSA Administrator determined that the new Licencia Federal de Conductor issued by the United Mexican States is recognized as proof of medical fitness to drive a CMV. The United States and Canada entered into a Reciprocity Agreement, effective March 30, 1999, recognizing that a Canadian commercial drivers license is proof of medical fitness to drive a CMV. Therefore, Canadian and Mexican CMV drivers are not required to have in their possession a medical examiners certificate if the driver has been issued, and possesses, a valid commercial driver license issued by the United Mexican States, or a Canadian Province or Territory and whose license and medical status, including any waiver or exemption, can be electronically verified. Drivers from any of the countries who have received a medical authorization that deviates from the mutually accepted compatible medical standards of the resident country are not qualified to drive a CMV in the other countries. For example, Canadian drivers who do not meet the medical fitness provisions of the Canadian National Safety Code for Motor Carriers, but are issued a waiver by one of the Canadian Provinces or Territories, are not qualified to drive a CMV in the United States. In addition, U.S. drivers who received a medical variance from FMCSA are not qualified to drive a CMV in Canada.
(a)(1)(ii) A person who qualifies for the medical examiners certificate by virtue of having obtained a medical variance from FMCSA, in the form of an exemption letter or a skill performance evaluation certificate, must have on his or her person a copy of the variance documentation when on-duty.
(a)(2) CDL exception. (i) Beginning January 30, 2012, a driver required to have a commercial drivers license under part 383 of this chapter, and who submitted a current medical examiners certificate to the State in accordance with §383.71(h) of this chapter documenting that he or she meets the physical qualification requirements of this part, no longer needs to carry on his or her person the medical examiners certificate specified at §391.43(h), or a copy. If there is no medical certification information on that drivers CDLIS motor vehicle record defined at 49 CFR 384.105, a current medical examiners certificate issued prior to January 30, 2012, will be accepted until January 30, 2014. After January 30, 2014, a driver may use a copy of the current medical examiners certificate that was submitted to the State for up to 15 days after the date it was issued as proof of medical certification.
(a)(2)(ii) A CDL holder required by §383.71(h) to obtain a medical examiners certificate who obtained such by virtue of having obtained a medical variance from FMCSA must continue to have in his or her possession the original or copy of that medical variance documentation at all times when on-duty.
(a)(3) A person is physically qualified to drive a commercial motor vehicle if:
(a)(3)(i) That person meets the physical qualification standards in paragraph (b) of this section and has complied with the medical examination requirements in §391.43; or
(a)(3)(ii) That person obtained from FMCSA a medical variance from the physical qualification standards in paragraph (b) of this section and has complied with the medical examination requirement in §391.43.
(b) A person is physically qualified to drive a commercial motor vehicle if that person
(b)(1) Has no loss of a foot, a leg, a hand, or an arm, or has been granted a skill performance evaluation certificate pursuant to §391.49;
(b)(2) Has no impairment of:
(b)(2)(i) A hand or finger which interferes with prehension or power grasping; or
(b)(2)(ii) An arm, foot, or leg which interferes with the ability to perform normal tasks associated with operating a commercial motor vehicle; or any other significant limb defect or limitation which interferes with the ability to perform normal tasks associated with operating a commercial motor vehicle; or has been granted a skill performance evaluation certificate pursuant to §391.49.
(b)(3) Has no established medical history or clinical diagnosis of diabetes mellitus currently requiring insulin for control;
(b)(4) Has no current clinical diagnosis of myocardial infarction, angina pectoris, coronary insufficiency, thrombosis, or any other cardiovascular disease of a variety known to be accompanied by syncope, dyspnea, collapse, or congestive cardiac failure;
(b)(5) Has no established medical history or clinical diagnosis of a respiratory dysfunction likely to interfere with his/her ability to control and drive a commercial motor vehicle safely;
(b)(6) Has no current clinical diagnosis of high blood pressure likely to interfere with his/her ability to operate a commercial motor vehicle safely;
(b)(7) Has no established medical history or clinical diagnosis of rheumatic, arthritic, orthopedic, muscular, neuromuscular, or vascular disease which interferes with his/her ability to control and operate a commercial motor vehicle safely;
(b)(8) Has no established medical history or clinical diagnosis of epilepsy or any other condition which is likely to cause loss of consciousness or any loss of ability to control a commercial motor vehicle;
(b) (9) Has no mental, nervous, organic, or functional disease or psychiatric disorder likely to interfere with his/her ability to drive a commercial motor vehicle safely;
(b)(10) Has distant visual acuity of at least 20/40 (Snellen) in each eye without corrective lenses or visual acuity separately corrected to 20/40 (Snellen) or better with corrective lenses, distant binocular acuity of at least 20/40 (Snellen) in both eyes with or without corrective lenses, field of vision of at least 70º in the horizontal meridian in each eye, and the ability to recognize the colors of traffic signals and devices showing standard red, green, and amber;
(b)(11) First perceives a forced whispered voice in the better ear at not less than 5 feet with or without the use of a hearing aid or, if tested by use of an audiometric device, does not have an average hearing loss in the better ear greater than 40 decibels at 500 Hz, 1,000 Hz, and 2,000 Hz with or without a hearing aid when the audiometric device is calibrated to American National Standard (formerly ASA Standard) Z24.51951;
(b)(12)(i) Does not use a controlled substance identified in 21 CFR 1308.11 Schedule I, an amphetamine, a narcotic, or any other habit-forming drug.
(b)(12) (ii) Exception. A driver may use such a substance or drug, if the substance or drug is prescribed by a licensed medical practitioner who:
(b)(12)(ii)(A) Is familiar with the drivers medical history and assigned duties; and
(b)(12)(ii)(B) Has advised the driver that the prescribed substance or drug will not adversely affect the drivers ability to safely operate a commercial motor vehicle; and
(b)(13) Has no current clinical diagnosis of alcoholism.
Part 395 of the FMCSA rules and regs deal with hour of service. Without knowing what your company does it's hard to give a blanket anwser. Your drivers must comply with the hours of service rules. From the sounds of it your vehicles that have been inspected required a CDL. IN that case the short haul exemption will be operating within 100 air miles. If your vehicles do not require a CDL then those vehicles are allowed 150 air miles. I caution you that this does not mean you can do what ever you want, like most folks I stop that think that local driving lets them do what they want. With the short haul exemption you must comply with all the requirement that are listed in 395.1. If you exceed the mileage for the exemption you will need a log book. If your claiming local short haul exemption but drive beyond the 12th hour, you are required to have a log book for the entire day.
Sounds like you have your hands full trying to figure this out. My suggestion is go to your State's lead MCSAP Agency and ask one of their officers for insight. It looks like you are located in PA, contact the PA State Police and ask to speak to one of their commercial vehicle inspectors.
dieselbear, Aug 4, 2010Report
Amos, rocknroll nik, Roadmedic and 1 other person Thank this.
The local dirt haulers i worked for before going OTR. Had dot numbers on the pickups. Because those companies also had 10 wheel dump trucks and a lot of times pulled dump trailers.Don't remember the light weights of the trucks but they were legal for 56,000 loaded weight.
That's what i was told. They also had to have cdl to drive those pickups. I don't know about med cards and since the laws have changed in the 6 years i was OTR. But the only employees that had to do logs. Were the truck drivers themselves. And only if the workday exceeded 12 hours. In the summer time. Those pickups exceeded 12 hours every day and 60 hours every week. Nobody worked on sundays except maybe the transport driver.
One company i was there for 7 years. We weren't allowed to work over 12 or 60 hours.
It appears your drivers will be required to keep logs IF they are over 10,001 lbs. AND they exceed the non-CDL CMV short-haul limts (FMCSA 395.1(e)(2). The rest of the time they are either not subject to log rules (under 10,001 lbs.), or they can follow the short-haul exemption for non-CDL CMV.
DISCLAIMER: I'm doing this on my phone, so if I got anything wrong that's why.Zeviander Thanks this.
Most DOT cops will look at 2 things. Your gvwr sticker on the inside of drivers door. (Your dually most likely at 12-15 thousand) And the gvwr plate on your trailer (up by the tounge usually) your pulling. If they see your trailer has tandem axles with dual's (sometimes singles) on them they immediatly can pull you over as those trailer are usually gvwr at 14k-24k by themselves,....hotshotters are getting in trouble on this. Please understand you can have an EMPTY trailer and still be cited just based on axle limits and gvwr plates of combined vehicle.OLDSKOOLERnWV Thanks this.
Don't know if this will help but..... I work for a Electrical / mechanical contractor. I am issued a 2016 Chevy 2500HD for normal just getting to and from. I drive our 2007 International tractor pulling the lowboy, 2001 Freightliner twin screw boom truck,1993 Ford twin screw crane truck, 1992 International twin screw flatbed water truck, all which have apportioned license. NOW..... back to the pickup, I have been running WV to Alabama for a few months now. No logbook needed until I hook into 1 of our tandem trailers then.... we have to run log books, but our office says once we are on a normal jobsite we are the same as working from our home shop when the 100 mile radius comes into play and no log book needed. These small trucks get confusing at times, but the axle weights on truck and trailer need to be added together. I have a class A (Tanker) but the guys with no cdl can drive the pickup and trailer, but they can not drive the F450 with apportioned tags. The non-cdl guys still have to have a medical card, all our pickups are registered for 26,000lbs because some pull pole trailers with 45ft poles, once again log book even with 1 axle on the trailer.
I don't think so. a half/ton short bed p.u pulling a small trailer "not for hire". A gardner doesn't need a log/CDL with a 1 ton dually, right ? A half ton p/u doesn't weigh much more than a large SUV pulling a U-Haul trailer. So where would a log/CDL come into play ?
I'm pretty sure @not4hire got it, but just in case, I'll throw my motto out there:
"Better to have and not need, than need and not have."
As far as I know, a driver cannot be fined for running a logbook and not needing it.
Page 1 of 3