We have a winner. On good days, you run the cruise. In the worst days you control everything by the throttle.
Big Rig Dynamics 101
Discussion in 'Experienced Truckers' Advice' started by Hammer166, Feb 1, 2013.
Page 2 of 3
-
-
Trucking Jobs in 30 seconds
Every month 400 people find a job with the help of TruckersReport.
-
But this story is more about the reaction, as Numb put it; "The whys of the do's and don'ts..." Because understanding the reactions of your truck to certain inputs might just save someone's bacon down the road.Rocks Thanks this. -
The answer is "G".
But "D" is the next best.
The law of physics apply and you want to restore traction. Slowing down or braking just allows the weight and momentum of the trailer to push on the tractor furthering the jack knife. Accelerating and you risk losing your drive traction making it even worse.
The answer is a very light throttle to match the trailer pushing on you to cancel the momentum of the trailer. Then you are not pulling or being pushed. Nuetral force as you said. I had the tight underware pleasure of this experience and it works great. Especially when you pass several 4 wheelers in the median and you restore and maintain control.
That's another clue too if you come upon previous wrecks. Slow her down before you get there. My case was going down a slight incline to an over pass and just so happen that's where they ran out of salt or whatever they use. Letting off the throttle wasn't good enough because the trailer pushing on me. -
ty op for the informative post. newbies REMEMBER this. and if its cold enough to make you lose traction, and you had the cruise on, you already did something wrong. but oily or wet surface can produce the same outcome in a freak situation, so you may find yourself needing to know the answer.
Rocks and CondoCruiser Thank this. -
If my drives loose traction and slide to the right, then I steer right and "follow" them. I guess I could also depress and hold in the clutch to release torque and allow them to find traction again, I may pull the trolley (trailer) valve a little to pull the combination straight a little, but doubt there is time for this in a skid. I've never been on a skid pad before unless you can count pulling rocky mountain doubles across I-80 in Wyoming for a few winters as a skid pad. I've come close to wrapping a set up on an icy bridge with a grade and a cross wind, talk about a sudden increase in heart rate! I skated across and "landed" on the other side at about a 10 degree angle, when it grabbed I was hoping it didn't roll. The best preparation is getting in a pickup truck and go play on muddy farm roads or snowy parking lots.
Rocks Thanks this. -
Condo nailed the gist of it, just enough throttle to keep the kingpin load from the tractor to the trailer. Let's look a little deeper at why. This is the straight road scenario, cornering forces change things a bit.
When the trailer starts to rotate after the trailer tires lose lateral grip, it wants to do so around the center of gravity, not the kingpin. What this means is that when the trailer starts to swing, it also pushes sideways on the tractor through the king pin (Which is why you feel the trailer break loose in the seat of your pants.) So here we are with the trailer tires sliding, adding little to braking effort, and therefore allowing the trailer to push forward against the kingpin. Combine this with the sideways push, and they tend push the drives the opposite direction as the trailer swing, rotating the nose of the tractor the same way the trailer is moving. So now the drives are much closer to losing grip as they have to deal with that side load. If they do start to slide, you have to react very quickly or a jackknife is imminent!
Think of the forces involved: the steers are now centered to the inside of the center of gravity (cg) of the truck, and are still producing braking force, wanting to force the tractor to rotate further towards the trailer. The drives are sliding, being pushed forward and out by the trailer, also tending to rotate the tractor towards the trailer as they are centered outside of the cg's path. And the further the tractor rotates, more of these forces are directed to further rotating the tractor because their force centers are moving further away from the cg's path. Picture two pencils; one pointed at nine o'clock, the other at eleven o'clock. If you thump the erasers of each in the twelve o'clock direction, you can visualize how more of the force is converting into rotation with the nine o'clock pencil. It's why jackknifes tend to snap around, the rotation speed increasing as the truck and trailer scissor together. And realize the whole time this is happening up front, the truck is also pushing the nose of the trailer back, increasing it's yaw rate as well.
So back to the point Condo made; by keeping a very slight forward tension on the kingpin by the tractor, the trailer can now induce a small side slip in the drives, but the momentum of the trailer is no longer driving the kingpin forward into the truck, and the drives have a much lighter force from the trailer to deal with. And while the trailer may off-track a bit, the friction of the tires and any small force on the kingpin from the truck tend to push and pull the trailer back into line with the travel direction. Picture a trailer yawed to the right; the tires pushing the rear of the trailer left, and the tractor gently tugs the nose to the right. This is where the "pull it into line with the johnny bar" thinkingncomes from, the only problem is that it is entirely too easy to lock the trailer tires because there is no feedback through the trailer brake control, defeating the benefit of the increased tug on the nose. Also, in a big, high angle slide, even with ABS, it can take several seconds to get the trailer tires rotating once they have locked, and those may be several seconds you wish you could rewind and get back.
All that said, if you watch the jackknife videos on youtube, you'll notice that most of them don't involve large angle slides of the trailer. The forces are all the same, you just don't see the trailer move much because the truck is already knifed before much movement takes place. I don't have the stats, but studies have shown many, if not most, are the result of unbalanced braking, specifically that the tractor brakes are out performing the trailer brakes. This can be from improper equipment matching which has the tractor brakes engaging first because of incompatible crack pressures, improper shoe selection on truck vs. trailer, or just flat out poorly maintained or defective trailer brakes. Any of those end up with the trailer pushing the tractor, generating the forces we talked about above; and that can be squirrely on dry pavement during a hard stop, and outright hazardous in slick conditions. And if I were an O/O pulling someone else's trailers, it's something I'd think long and hard about, even to the point of chatting with the shop about their brake shoe choices, just to make sure there's be no issues. Of course, way too many people in our industry slap the cheapest shoe they can find on trailers, and that might not always be the same shoe over time.
Just some thoughts for y'all to ponder...Last edited: Feb 1, 2013
Rocks Thanks this. -
Good points and another thread to bring back from the dead.
-
There are too many variables that can effect a situation like this. One time you might just back out of it and it turns out ok. Or on another trip you might have to apply just the trailer brakes. You see you can not set down a specific rule that applies to a situation that has too many variables. EXCEPT ONE. Slow down when the road is not safe. That's the one action where you can apply it to all different situations with the same outcome. I have never been in an uncontrollable loss of traction in all my years. I guess it's just dumb luck but I sure have slow down more than enough times. So I believe for new drivers that this technical explained situation should not even be thought about until he or she has enough years driving where they might push the load a little. I do not worry that my trailer will break lose because I worry about an accident or rock slide just around the bend. So I slow down on those accounts which covers losing traction. Just my 2¢
Rocks Thanks this. -
Not really, if you're sliding on a curve, braking is NEVER the right answer. There's more to what the other guy said about the laws of physics applying. One major one is the gyroscopic effect. This is your wheels natural tendency to roll straight in the direction of travel. It's the reason why when you stop turning the wheel to come out of a turn, it straightens itself. The tires spinning wants to turn your front wheels straight.
On a trailer or drives, it's a little different than your steer axle, but the same basic principle. As long as those tires are spinning, physics wants to bring them in the direction of the spin. This is what stops a jackknife from happening. While the trailer offtracks a little, the trailer wants to move in the direction of the tires rotation, which is what keeps 60,000lbs of momentum following your tractor. The risk that comes up when you brake is you lose that force. Now the gyroscopic effect doesn't exist. The direction of movement is going to be towards the direction of momentum.
For this reason, if your trailer is ever sliding while you have the brakes released, DO NOT use your brakes, otherwise you completely negate all the laws of physics that you're depending on to bring that trailer back behind you. But like GasHauler said, slow down BEFORE this ever becomes an issue, that's the best advice in here... But in the case that a slide happens, you want those wheels spinning freely. Braking also brings up another huge risk of rolling over. Anything spinning wants to stay perpendicular to the axis of the spin in relation to the direction of gravity. Basically, spinning tires want to be straight up and down. It's how a bike works. Now you have two forces working against you if you brake. One is the trailers center of gravity and it's momentum, which is the common way everyone is taught that rollovers happen, but the other is losing that gyroscrope and your tires catching traction. The closer the trailer's momentum is to being perpendicular to the tires, the higher the risk of rolling becomes.
Or, like GasHauler said, SLOW DOWN BEFORE YOU'RE IN THIS SITUATION. And hopefully, when everything is saying slow down before the curve and accelerate through it, it makes sense to you now for why you're supposed to do it that way.rank Thanks this. -
Rockstar, you're misunderstanding the gyroscope effect and the forces involved. Those forces don't straighten the front wheels, that's the caster effect. The gyroscope forces actually try to prevent the tires from turning about the vertical (kingpin) axis in that case. Even in the case of a tire spinning perpendicular to the direction of travel, the gyroscopic forces resist rotation about any axis other than the axis of spin.
Even on motorcycles, the gyroscope forces only play a minimal role in moving the bike around during lean angle changes. Yes they provide stability, but the precession forces are minor compared those generated by moving the front footprint relative to the cg.
The centering forces you're referencing are driven by traction. Rolling in a direction perpendicular to rotation axis is the lowest friction movement, so rolling tires seek to roll with zero slip angle.
Trucking Jobs in 30 seconds
Every month 400 people find a job with the help of TruckersReport.
Page 2 of 3