Black Smoke.....power or waste?

I try to explain it to you in very simple way. When you change to marine injectors and/or cam, you must first program the ECM so that it gives stock power with those parts installed. No you have an engine that idles smooth and doesn't chatter or anything. Only after that you start increasing fuel but only at the upper part of the fuel map, not the whole map. That way it is still idling well and is as easy as stock to drive at small pedal movement and doesn't have any jerking problems at certain load points. Only problem is if the ECM is too slow to control very short opening times as is the case with old 3406E ECMs, for example. That is the reason 3406E marine engines use only 3 cylinders when idling.

Tell this to PDI or whoever does their programming so that they will get more satisfied customers.

 

I read and study everything before I do something because I'm poor and don't have money and time to explode turbochargers or other parts of the engine when trying to find more power or fuel economy. I try to get it almost right the first time. You never get it right the first time but you can get quite close by doing some calculations and simulations.

 

You two should work together as I'm sure it would be a better outcome than these constant debates, although nothing wrong with healthy debating LOL

What I would suggest is take a look at the Patent's on these CAT injectors and it will explain quite a few things. these are readily available to Joe public from the Patent site.
However the patents are as clear as mud in some parts and you need to have a reasonable knowledge of the complete system to be able to put in the bits they left out.

The biggest problem with the Cat fuel system is Cat will NOT print any data by way of specifications or technical operation of their injectors. They will not sell Parts for their injectors even to their own people. This being the case there is no Cat repair shops for these injectors nor can any Cat dealer test and Calibrate them CORRECTLY. (we are not talking about doing a POP test) To calibrate correctly you need to modulate the actuator through its complete working range and then match that to the tip.. Not just do a Pop test LOL

The only people with knowledge on these are people who have the capacity to test and adjust them correctly.. The reason I say Correctly is there is many test benches out there like Merlin, Monier, Diesel Logic etc etc that simply don't cut it.
However the people using this equipment assume its correct and they are doing a wonderful job.. Sadly its not the case.

The mapping and fuel tables obviously will be wrong and struggle at idle due to the correction factors when you have altered the injectors for increased flow. The correction factors are directly related to the flow of the default injector listed in the tables so when the ECM tries to correct by way of increasing or decreasing fuel at any given point what fuel it thinks its adding and what fuel is being delivered are two different things.

With tips such as the 5.5kg/min used in high HP marine its hard to control that idle so by dropping to 3 pots you are using arguably double the fuel in the remaining 3 and with such big tips they start to become controllable to a degree where they simply wouldn't be using all six and wanting such a small amount of fuel in each. This can be vastly improved by using more orifice of a smaller dimension.

To get a lovely idle is very possible and I do it every day and usually the first comment i get from the truck owner is ... "How Smooth is that!!!!" "this has never run this smooth ever" "WTF have you done to my Truck"
This is without altering the Mapping and just working with the injectors.

Its very hard to debate or criticise the discussions thrown up as I said before there is little data on these to refer to and most people who do test them are using the wrong equipment and as such don't see the same results and more importantly the correct results.

I will say this though... The off the shelf Injector from your dealer is very poor!! However its "within Spec" ..... I have seen as much as 15~ 20% variation on new injectors and there is no way you can get a smooth idle and smooth continuous power through the whole Rev range without first dismantling the injectors and servicing them. which includes re trimming when done.

You may jag 6 good ones or 6 bad ones or 3 of each depending on if its your lucky day or not. That's why some trucks go well, some trucks struggle and some trucks in-between.

Cat has a bloody good ECM that works well its just unfortunate they let themselves down with very average Injectors..

Don't get me Started on C175 Injectors Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr The ECM in these engines has Adaptive Trimming.. Great if the Injectors is trimmed correctly to start with but with such wild variations in their off the shelf injectors the adaptive trimming is nothing more than a nice fancy name!

 

Now with my azzbackwards way of thinkin' I still didn't like 136-7908 part number cam. Why you ask? Hmmmm........if this cam has the same Intake and Exhaust lobe lift as the standard truck cam 139-0537 with the higher injector lobe.....it should work, No? What about the C-18 1000 Hp marine cam, it has the same Intake and Exhaust lobe lift as the two previous cams listed above.........what's a fella ta do?


Wow the marine 1000 got the same intake exhaust lift as a stocker!
Does that include the marine 800?
Also is the duration the same?

What I am wondering is did cat only change the injector lobe between the stock shaft and the marine 1000?

 

I'm not really qualified to make comments but I'm all ears or eyes in this case.
As long as the insults and return sarcasm don't overshadow the technical info its a credit to the forum.

 

Well said, king Q

 

First and foremost, I'm not angry with Lenny. Am I having fun with this debate? Yes.

Am I trying to draw a response from Lenny? Yes.

Do I think Lenny is a smart person and understands what he's saying? YES!!!!!!!!!

Do I think Lenny likes to argue his point? Yes, sometimes this is the only way he'll respond to any question presented at least in The Garage, 18 Wheeler section of the board.

I stated something earlier and Lenny hasn't picked up in the wording of it. Far_Call in his first post stated something that I 100% agreed with in my next post......Lenny assumed that I was agreeing in part, but that I didn't understand the physics of what was written in this post. At least this is the perception of the way it came across to me. With this my wording of my responses became very cryptic in my understanding of the discussion at hand...........also with a lil southern slang thrown in for the perception of...........

Lenny's outlook on life is very pessimistic and argumentative in his stands on any subject. He reminds me of my Father and the way I always had to prove myself to him. I haven't been as fair in this debate as I could have been. I understood that Lenny assumed I didn't understand one concept of his responses and something Far_Call posted that Lenny should have paid attention to. I continually worded my posts to draw him into the foray of discussion/argument afterwards. When Black_Dog commented about Lenny's marital status, I should have stopped playing with my words.

My sarcasm and azzbackwards description of my thought process was again to elicit a response and to see if he caught what I was agreeing to without agreeing to it directly, it at the same time it enforced that I didn't understand what he was saying. The reason I asked him questions was to try to get him to understand that I understood his comments. But here again he reminds me of my Father.........it's hard for Lenny to agree with me because of his antagonistic personality. He would ignore my comments that were agreeing with his. But because some of those comments were directed as questioning, he would answer some with a simple yes, if he felt that to ignore it made him look like he was being argumentative to the forum or ignorant of the facts of this topic. What he wouldn't realize is if I understood that question and knew his answer before he posted his answer to the question that I should have understood the physics of this topic. There were also things I deliberately didn't say......to elicit a response from him

Leeeeeennnnnnnny..............did I not agree to this comment?

If I agree to this comment.........what would the actually injection pressure be of the fuel at the tip as the injector is firing?


Unfortunately CAT will never give this spec out. Is it higher than 5000 PSI?

I'd of had to answer this question with a Yes answer, but again pressure is ever changing during the injection cycle due to everything Lenny and I both have posted. Engine RPM. Injector Lobe Lift Height. Injector Lobe Ramp Rate. Rocker Arm Ratio. Plunger Diameter. Orifice Size and Number of them in the tip

With everything I've just posted in the response

Does the spill port poppet valve work as a fail safe limit to keep from blowing a tip off an injector when the pressure rises above the MAX limit in the design structure of the tip??????? Would you like to answer this question. This question again is some what loaded if Lenny doesn't take the time to reflect on what I've just stated above. It also is a question that CAT wouldn't answer either, and something I doubt any of the CAT Technical Field Reps would know how to answer.

Far_Call hasn't answered it either in his posts, but alluded to a way to find the answer. Our Aussie CAT guru is very secretive.......I also believe he has the Aussie nature of being very good heart-ed with anyone he meets and enjoys their company.

Hopefully I haven't offended anyone with my sarcastic sense of humor in my responses to this topic

Lenny.....this on a personal note. My Father is 75 now and his grown children don't interact much in his life. You will reap what you sow in the ending period of your lifetime

 

Mr Haney little Insider tech tip for you called I was inline for a Test Cell Operator for CAT back in 04-05 and on the HEUI injectors the Pressure gauges on the Test cells were reading between 25K-30K PSI before they would Pop off at all. That give you a clue the pressure your working with in them now. To even INTERVIEW for the freaking Job I had to sign a 7 Year Non Disclosure Agreement if I did not get it and it JUST EXPIRED Yesterday so I am free from that SOB. All their Injectors are higher pressure than a normal injector. Hope this helps you out

 

Common rails are running at that psi with high psi injection pumps. Not saying its not true but seems really high to me.

 

The STD Pop pressure would be @ 400Bar or 6,000 PSI
Woking pressures internally can be as high as 1,700Bar (25,000PSI) ~ 2,100 Bar (30,500PSI)
These numbers will vary wildly depending on the parts used in the Injectors so take them for what they are worth.