Coaxial cable stretcher

Discussion in 'CB Radio Forum' started by rabbiporkchop, Jul 19, 2016.

  1. rabbiporkchop

    rabbiporkchop Road Train Member

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    300 divided by frequency equals free space wavelength measured in meters which equals 360° through a vacuum.
    Easy stuff really simple math
     
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  3. Ridgeline

    Ridgeline Road Train Member

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    Craig I agree, not to bash anyone here it seems to a couple of us that the precision and the attention to issues which was not a bit important are nothing more than sales pitches and seem to get tiring.

    What is forgotten is the design of the radio's rf/if line has too much sloppiness involved to be concerned with any delays caused by line delays with a feed line or a jumper (remember we are talking nano seconds and that isn't detectable by people unless they are superman). The silliness is compounded by the fact that the paper cited has a conclusion, which is as follows ...

    The distributed inductance and capacitance are the basic transmission line parameters. From these, we can calculate the line impedance, the delay in terms of time and phase, the speed of propagation and the velocity factor. The inductive component has an additional component at the lower frequencies which slows the signal somewhat. This occurs around 100 KHz for small coax and lower for larger cables. For frequencies above 1 MHz, the dielectric constant of the cable is probably responsible for the decrease in the delay. Measuring the delay of cables can reveal some “hidden” properties that could make it unsuitable for some applications, such as carrying wideband data.

    What this can be a concern about is when we get into microwave transmissions systems where the delays are critical enough to cause issues with both transmission of wide and data and receive of signals in weak signal applications, which like EME and sat work. However in the CB world it really comes down to a selling point, my coax is better than yours or my antenna can pick up a signal fast because I don't have the 12nS delay, all silly bs.

    As for the tech issue, restoring back to factory, what in the hell does that mean to begin with? Anyone who claims this may have to get a simple fact that these are mass produced items that are branded and are type accepted with maybe a variance in preformance specs, so no one radio is exactly like another and this applies to general purpose mass produced ham radios and other radios like marine radios. Anyone can "restore" preformance, it isn't a hard skill to learn, but what makes a difference is knowing what really matters and what doesn't.

    Oh and in the video, I have to add you don't measure delays with a scope, it is done with other instruments, one is a vector network analyser.
     
  4. craig_sez

    craig_sez Road Train Member

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    Uhmmm WHAT DID HE SAYYYYY!!!!!
     
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  5. rabbiporkchop

    rabbiporkchop Road Train Member

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    It's not a question of using the scope to measure delay it's a question of understanding what happens within the piece of cable to hinder the Precision of your measurements and use that knowledge to your advantage when setting up your test bench
     
  6. kc0iv

    kc0iv Light Load Member

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    You seen to miss one important point. That being you would have to have a Infinite number of cables, one for every frequency, impedance, etc.

    leon
    kc0iv
     
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  7. rabbiporkchop

    rabbiporkchop Road Train Member

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    ARRL Antenna Book, 17th ed., p. 24-12:
    "When the line length is an even multiple of 90o (that is, a multiple of ? wavelength), the input resistance
    is equal to the load resistance, regardless of the
    line Zo... It does not matter whether the impedance
    ...is resistive, reactive, or a combination of both."

    There is only one frequency I am concerned with.
    I only know one technician who devoted his life to a single frequency .
    That's one way to learn some interesting things if you focus your whole life on a single frequency. There is only one frequency my technician is concerned with as well as the majority of his customers.

    Check out these hams arguing amongst themselves about this very topic it's pretty funny
    http://www.redwaveradio.com/9_dbad721b9a0582f7_4.htm
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2016
    Reason for edit: Spending a Lifetime on a single frequency
  8. rabbiporkchop

    rabbiporkchop Road Train Member

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    An rf test bench only needs to be configured for a single frequency assuming all the customers use that frequency.

    Every rf test bench I've seen except for one has the following problems to varying degrees:

    Stability (lack of self oscillation)
    Bandwidth
    Noise
    Harmonic distortion
    Intermodulation distortion
    Temperature coefficients
    Large signal power
    Slew rate
    Large signal power conversion efficiency
    Amplitude frequency response
    Phase frequency response
    Differential group delay distortion
    Pulse fidelity
    Overload recovery
    Sensitivity to transistor production lot parameter variations

    Making the phase angle of the load voltage and current equal is desirable. A complex load impedance produces an elliptical load line which produces distortion even in a totally "linear" circuit.
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2016
    Reason for edit: Varies
  9. Ridgeline

    Ridgeline Road Train Member

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    I also think you've missed a very important point.

    IT DOESN'T MATTER!

    Here is why.

    CB radios no matter what you, mark or anyone else says are not precision instruments of rf. They have, as I said have a built in latitude within the design that prevents them from being precision instruments. You can make all the claims you want, have mark 'restore' it to factory specs which by the way is made with wide tolerances due to componet differences, circus differences and so on (if you ever looked into manufacturing a radio will agree) BUT the fact remains that it doesn't matter one bit.

    My test bench has jumpers that are specific lengths, and vary not according to some need to lessen line delays but rather for the purpose of setting up DUT and the test equipment. I have no issues with testing anything until I get into the 24ghz range when I would see issues with coax induced delays or other problematic coax centric issues.

    And yes it is a question about measuring delays on a single trace scope, your link itself described the method of testing, and I didn't see a scope mentioned, rather a VNA was.

    Oh and while you rattled off all kinds of things, one thing I brought up and has been ignored is one of the issues with cbs and their pll use, phase noise from the pll circuit which effects the mixers and the dynamic range of the radio (another thing that is ignored).
     
  10. rabbiporkchop

    rabbiporkchop Road Train Member

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    Perhaps you could remind me why your opinion even matters since by your own admission you have never compared your own work to anyone else's work. Keep in mind that's all I've done for the past 12 years. The only thing that matters is real-world performance and not a bunch of theory from someone who by their very own admission has never achieved half of what my equipment is capable of doing at the same frequency which is the only thing that matters. Until you are capable of talking from Drums Pennsylvania to Harrisburg Pennsylvania atwill 7 days a week from a mobile or from Drums Pennsylvania to Quakertown Pennsylvania at will 7 days a week on 11 meters on a.m. your opinion means absolutely nothing to me. The only thing that matters is what can be replicated at will. Anybody can ramble off a bunch of quotes from a book kind of like David Bupp did. Until you understand how cable works at a single frequency and how you can manipulate cable in such a way to render reactance meaningless, and are able to recognize how reactance affect the accuracy of an RF test bench that isn't configured correctly your opinion really means nothing to me.
    I spent the last 12 years analyzing work from people just like you and comparing it to everyone else's work and by your own admission it doesn't Stack Up.
    When you take two different radios to two different technicians and both radios are identical models and afterwards one of those radios only talks half of the distance and then you take the one that talks half the distance back to the guy who did the good radio if he is able to duplicate the same results from the radio that was less than desirable before in a consistent manner you might be onto something which is precisely what I've done over the last 12 years. Having a very good signal generator with almost no total harmonic distortion and being able to maintain the Integrity of the waveform out of the transmitter is a very difficult thing to do as I'm sure you are aware. Someone that can do it on a consistent basis is someone to be respected.
     
  11. rabbiporkchop

    rabbiporkchop Road Train Member

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    Delay is always caused by the dielectric.
    Not probably. Always. The point wasn't to measure the delay. The point was to acknowledge the delay exists. Once you acknowledge the delay exists then you can start to understand other coaxial cable characteristics like 90° impedance Transformers and 180° impedance repeaters.
    Once you acknowledge the existence of those things then you can better understand how to present a 49 ohm load to a transmitter on a single frequency on a test bench.
    Per Arrl handbook
    180° increments of any cable at a specific frequency with any characteristic impedance will always present a 49 ohm load to a transmitter at same frequency assuming a 49 ohm load is present at the other end of the cable Regardles of any reactance present.
    And that's precisely the point of any test bench.
    For maximum accuracy you always want to be immune from reactance in a laboratory setting.
     
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