International DEF Sensor
Discussion in 'International Forum' started by Vincent5309, Jul 2, 2021.
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i have been down now for 3 weeks and this is the fourth time it had to be changed, i think a class action law suit should be done.Another Canadian driver, mfairman491, HFHST and 2 others Thank this.
QUALITYTRUCK Road Train Member
- Jun 14, 2009
A couple of things have changed with new QLS sensors. (1) they now have a core charge associated with them (2) a 2 page TSB is in the box explaining the same thing HeavyD enlightened us with. Checking and changing DEF heater control valve.Another Canadian driver and Heavyd Thank this.
Im the guy in the article. Sorry for invading your board Im not a trucker Im just an RVer from the tech industry with a Cummins powered International 4300. I saw your trucks all lined up at International waiting for DEF parts.
I tried to get Cummins to give us the EMS software until parts were available. They said no.
And I posted this on FB after the article published. If you are derated you now know who to contact. Navistar cant help they just dont have the parts.
This article about sums it up. They wouldn’t even bother to ask.
They could do it but they won’t do it. They never gave a reason. They wouldn’t even bother to ask the EPA for a waiver.
Even when I told them I was de-rated and fearful I would get rear ended by a semi, to please ask the EPA for a waiver before one of the nice people I meet all the time at RV parks gets hurt, they wouldn’t even bother to ask.
While I was scrambling to figure out where to stay, how to keep my family cool in the heat, how to save my frozen food, how was I going to vacate my RV and get home, they wouldn’t even bother to ask.
While I was explaining to my wife and daughter that the terms “de-rate” and “DEF sensor” meant that we would not be able to continue our trip to see my active duty military son back from an extended middle east deployment, they wouldn’t even bother to ask.
When I made the case for waiver in multiple deeply technical emails that discussed both hardware design problems and potential software solutions that only Cummins could implement, they wouldn’t even bother to ask.
Even after I told them I spoke to the EPA, gave them the approval authorities name and made sure there were no big obstacles for them to ask for a waiver, they wouldn’t even bother to ask.
If you are a trucker, and that’s one of your trucks that I see lined up at International waiting for DEF parts, the same truck that you use to make a living to feed your family I want YOU to know they wouldn’t even bother to ask.
If they hear from one of you or ten of you nothing will happen. If they hear from hundreds of affected users over and over and over there is still a chance for them to turn their tone deaf decision around. That means emailing and calling each and every day until all of us are safely back on the road. It starts by Cummins asking the EPA for a waiver.
Please send to your friends on other RV boards and if you know of anyone affected in the trucking industry send it to them as well. If their flawed decision goes viral, there is a chance they will at least ask. Same thing I told them. Please just ask.
We are not out of the woods yet as of Friday there are still no committed supply of parts.
I’m going to add one more thing to motivate everyone to participate. While we were de-rated, plans cancelled, scrambling to get home and waiting for parts let’s have a look at what they were doing.
Not sitting stranded.
First and foremost, “They” are not Cummins. “They” are the following people:
CEO Linebarger annual compensation 2020: $17,291,581. That’s 17 million dollars – Annually. That’s every year except the year before was 25 million. No, I can’t make this up.
For every day you are de-rated, and Mr. Linebarger fails to ask the EPA for a waiver so that you can keep moving he makes about $50,000 dollars. Every day. Every single day of the year.
CFO Smith annual compensation 2020: $4,000,096 That’s 4 Million dollars.
V. Chair Satterwaite annual compensation 2020: $4,607.396. That’s 4 million dollars.
Here is how the Compensation Committee of the board of Cummins justified Mr. Satterwaites bonus in 2020: “Continued to work with OEM and end user customers to deliver value through improved product quality and performance, responsive delivery and excellent product support. (Emphasis added).
Ms. Rumsey is new to her job, no compensation data yet, but she ran engineering and should know better.
And finally, the ultimate indignity. It is also entirely possible that they just flew right over you on their way to meet their families while you were stuck in an International parking lot.
“Our officers, including our Named Executive Officers, may use our aircraft for reasonable personal use….” (Emphasis added).
But now you know: They. Wouldn’t. Even. Bother. To. Ask.
Just think about that.
Page 52 has the chart.
Another Canadian driver, Heavyd, ChuckMartel and 1 other person Thank this.
Hello Im the guy from the RV travel article. I have been in communication with both the EPA and Cummins on the DEF issue trying to get them to solve the DEF sensor problem with software not hardware. I have some traction within the EPA. No guarantees but they are not fighting they are helping. Here is a status. A credit to a guy named Archer2 who I have been in contact with and use a lot of his thinking in my arguments.
See the end. If Cummins doesnt come around and come to a deal with the EPA Im going to need alot of truckers to chime in. There are only so many RV people there are many more of you guys. Im hearing so many trucks are sidelined, we may need to hear from you can you spread the word?
I know these are really long posts but there are a lot of positive things going on behind the scenes. If you want to be fully informed please grab yourself a coffee (or a beer) and read the whole post.
The long and the short of it is the EPA is fully engaged on our behalf. I received the following from a "Senior EPA official" in an email this morning. I am not identifying him right now as he is working hard on the problem and both of us would prefer he not be distracted by a bunch of email.
" I recognize the critical nature of this issue. I can assure you that pursuing resolution of this particular issue has become my highest priority item. I am engaging in several meetings each day with various stakeholders to resolve. I have clear support from our upper management to make resolution of this “issue” my highest priority. "
He also disclosed the nature of his discussions with the engine manufacturers (not just Cummins) but again given the sensitive nature preferred I not disclose those details to you and I'm going to respect that since he is working hard toward a resolution. We both just want this fixed so have to stay focused.
There is also some confidential information that is being exchanged between the manufacturers and the EPA and it is under NDA. This is to be expected. Unit volumes, industries affected, who would be covered under a waiver etc. This is the BEST news so far. Materials produced and discussions under NDA are not privileged information, they are discoverable in litigation and the engine manufacturers know that. So this tells me that there is some recognition within Cummins regarding the seriousness of the problem, and are doing the best they can to protect themselves. From what? When some RV family on vacation gets run over because they were derated a jury will find out that Cummins knew, consumers and the EPA asked them to fix it and they didn't. The size of the liability and brand damage is enormous. I can't tell you how important this is and is the reason I asked Cummins formally in writing to ask the EPA for a waiver. It builds what the legal community calls a contemporaneous record. Cummins can run but they cant hide from that now. You can forget about a class action unless you want your truck sitting there for the next 10 years. Companies aren't afraid of nuisance class action lawsuits. Class action is all about lawyers making money not plaintiffs getting solutions. Bad news affects stock price and bonuses. That they care about.
A couple of more items in the weeds for your consideration.
The code in the ECM is not open source but the interfaces to the sensors are somewhat standard and likely use standard protocols across engine manufacturers. Our position (and now I think that of the EPA) are that the industry handles DEF sensor failure errors incorrectly. Cummins has denied this to me in writing but they are wrong. There is no such thing as zero defect code, just ask anyone who has written software. They have a defect. When your DEF sensor fails, the emissions system still works as evidenced by the NOx sensor not being triggered. So, the DEF sensor is NOT the SCR system, it is just one input. Would you shut the fuel pump off if the fuel tank sensor failed? No. (Thanks Archer - great example)
In the course of this exercise we became aware that Cummins may have an EPA approved version of the code that doesn't use the DEF sensor that can derate you if the NOx gets too high. This means we really may not need the emergency services code base as I have suggested, there is another code base that would actually work better. You would have to keep your DEF tank full even of your ECM was flashed with this code, or the NOx sensor would derate you if your DEF tank went dry. I don't know for sure but we think that this is a workable solution such that people just wont let their DEF run out and pollute the environment. This is important to the EPA.
Finally when will this resolve? The next step is more press and to bring the board of directors into it. I am getting the email addresses of all of the directors and may ask you guys to lobby them mid next week. At this point I (and again I think this is also true of the EPA) want Cummins pressured to do the right thing, not cornered so bad that they fight irrationally. They have said no to me in writing and now need a face saving move but I'm not waiting forever and neither should you.
I am more optimistic that this solution will work its the right thing to do. I just never expected this much help from the EPA. Not sure how long it will take but there is momentum.
I say it again to my RV friends.... Cummins has a 34 billion dollar market cap, 87 percent market share but they will forever have to ask the EPA for permission to go to the bathroom. They really want to say NO to a reasonable request from the EPA?
We are getting there.
Post your questions if you have any.Another Canadian driver, silverspur and Barry ga Thank this.
I have a 2021 super-c with a 6.7
Cummings on an international frame. DUH on my part!
Question if I understand this right the dealer can reset the code, and you can go another 200 miles or so.
I will reset mine to make it home, so if true, what reprogramer do I need to buy.
I've seen them from 200 to 4000 dollars, but I want one that will work??
Also, Dorman products sell several different def heads, but my unit was too new for them to cross-reference.
But it may be worth checking.
Type in google
irishluck09 Light Load Member
So why dont all the truckers that need these sensors just email cummins and put the pressure of them? my lonestar is down until I get a new sensor which could be from 2 weeks to 6 months. Im not waiting that long for a part.
Many people have if you read some of the posts, but cummings dont give a crap.
A simple reprograms, so warning stays on but does not make the vehicle only do 5 mph as they have for a fire truck, EMC vehicles.
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