please read and learn

To gravdigr. I thought about this thread a lot last night. In fact, I had more nightmares.

If I could only say one thing to you, it would be this. Do not beat yourself up for what you did not do there. Professional emergency responders have the training and practiced skills to know what to do at a scene like that.

And even then, they will find that they second guess themselves afterward. Particularly when people die. This in itself is not a bad thing, because emergency responders also use this time to realize, learn and practice what they could have done differently.

But the "Average Joe" who is unfortunate enough to be at the scene of something like this, seldom has the knowledge, training and frankly self control to know what to do, and then go ahead and do it. There is no point in trying to second guess yourself here.

The fact is that "stuff" happens. People die. We can do all we can to mitigate certain things, but sometimes things are just so horrific that they are "unsurvivable."

If you find that you are having problems with this, you need to talk to someone who has experience with Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome. This can be anybody from a friend who has seen action in battle up to and including psychiatrists. Usually, folks who have been there can give you enough of a perspective that you will be able to put it behind you.

These are things that we really didn't know back in the '60's to mid '90's. I never went through a "stress debriefing" until about 1995. All I can say is that I wish they had been available from the '60's on, which is when I first got involved in medical response.

Good luck to you with this, as time passes, it will fade. But if it doesn't, if you are finding yourself dwelling on it, or having nightmares about it, please seek some counsel.

 

It's called PTSD. Talk to your doctor about it if you havn't already. I know, cause I have it.

 

I'm sorry if this sounds, or comes across as "cold"...I have both the EMS and military background to voice this "cold" opinion.

PTSD? No it's called MEMORY! Please don't continue on with the "psychobabble" from this "modern era"!

Gravedigger...you did the right thing by not jumping in and removing the obstruction to attempt to get to the victim! Too many times "good Samaritans" inflict more and more damaging injuries to accident trauma. Often times the accident victim injures themselves due to the adrenaline masking the pain of the injury.

By removing the debris and getting to the victim, there is an almost uncontrollable urge to want to pull the victim clear of the accident. By waiting and not clearing the debris, you allowed the EMS people to do a controlled extrication. The LEO's...though seemingly hurriedly "tossed" items out of the way...they knew they had the "means" to begin triage and care once access to the victim was established.

From your description of what you saw...it sounds like the demise was instantaneous for the driver, and for the child...with the amount and type of debris that was cleared, probably the same. You need to find solace in that fact...that it was quick...but I regret to tell you...that could be the only solace you will find in this event. The Schneider driver will have to work himself to the same...that he did nothing wrong, actually everything right, and that the fault or blame falls on the shoulders of the now deceased driver of the van. And I don't see the LEO's or his company finding any fault in what he did....as long as his logs and HOS are in good order.

This is what got me out of the EMS and Funeral business....children losing their future from their parents lack of judgment!

 

Yeah Tom, I know you are "old school." I was too, for almost all of my career. The first time I was ordered to a "stress debriefing," my thoughts were, "What IS this BS. Hell, I've been doing this work for #### year 20 years, plus the EMS before and during it! I am in control and don't need this crap!?

Yeah, that is what I thought. Until I realized that those stress debriefings that I went to did a lot to quiet my thoughts about the incidents they covered. Unfortunately, there were just too many incidents before that, and they were never really addressed. And THOSE are the ones that still occasionally get to me.

Psychobabble? Well, perhaps PTSD can be considered that. But it is also a very real thing, at least for some people.

Funny thing about those debriefings. I was not the only one who went into them saying ????????????????????????? Don't need this BS. But with the exception of a guy that I had always considered to be a bit mentally unstable anyway, every one of us there was helped by it. Of course we did have the bozo who maintained that "Real Men didn't need all this sissy stuff."

Personally, I've seen to many folks go completely off the deep end. Now I'm not saying they were the most stable of personalities in the first place. But I think their suicides were unnecessary if they had only been able to get a bit of help.

 

Maybe it's the LEO side...I admit there is a huge difference in the "aspects" of the job comparing law enforcement to Fire/Medic....we don't have the same stresses to deal with for sure. Plus Fire/Medic, and mortuary....well we aren't the "first" on the scene and generally not all that surprised or "put off" by what is initially encountered. The confined space rescues, and underwater rescues...removals....were always the worst.

Perhaps I am callous or very thick skinned so to speak....I just can't get a grasp on always having to "find a reason" for every event in our lives....maybe it was my upbringing, maybe growing up on a ranch/farm lends one to a different attitude towards death....as I have always believed, death is inevitable, when and why is not for me to question...just hope it comes quickly when it is my time!

 

I've experienced your pain on several occasions...

Watched a 16 yr old barrel roll beside me, she was hanging out the window as the Blazer was flipping foot caught in the steering wheel.

Watched in horror as a car came at me head on on I-4 in Orlando Fl

Held a woman while she died after her and her husband was hit from behind and sandwiched with the car in front of them stopped.

Each of these incidences changed me forever... the bad dreams, the sick feeling in your gut, It will make you evaluate yourself, your life and those that are important to you...


Be well

 

Hard way to start for you.
Sadly you will need to be ready to see much more of it if you stay with trucking. The time on the road leads to seeing way more of this stuff.
Hold their hand, pray with them if they ask ( even if you dont normally pray) some will tell you names of people to notify and you can relay that to leo.
The last thing you should do being untrained is try extracation. They could be trapped in a way that is keeping them from bleeding or worse.
If danger is fire or the like then make the call, moving someone and they wind up bleeding out is better than burning to Death in my opinion.
In our litigious world if you move someone and make the injury worse some ambulance chaser will take you to court and ruin your world.
Clear your mind of it. The memory will never go away, just fade.
You will see more, each one different than any other before it.
Good luck to you. Know that you did everything you could do and file it.

 

Good for you Gravdigr.

And how appropriate to say, ''you gotta enjoy the little things,'' you have no idea how that means so much to me right now. Or, ''take each thing one at time'' as I was told today. I drove by Lake Ontario today to just see the beautiful blue green water, sandy beach and bright blue sunny sky and it felt nice. Kinda like the sunrise.......