(E)very (N)ew (G)raduate (L)eaves (A)fter (N)inety (D)ays: My C.R. England Experience

((DISCLAIMER: I am writing about my experience with C.R. England/CRE to hold them accountable for their behavior and to shine light on the way they conduct themselves. This goes out as a warning to all potential students/potential drivers or for anyone that is considering attending the CRE trucking school or working for them.))

I have been in shipping/receiving and I have been a truck dispatcher on and off since 2006. I know how to treat drivers and what their needs are, I always did my best to be respectful, honest and to get their needs met while also getting the loads delivered safely and on time. In both positions I worked in the petro-chemical industry and though this is my first experience as an actual truck driver and in the refrigerated/dry goods business, I will be as fair and emotionally detached from my experience with C.R. England and how they conduct business as possible. I would not recommend them to anyone under any circumstances(especially if you have children or/and a mortgage to take care of).This review however is MY experience and doesn't speak for all CRE drivers/employees(though it seems to speak for the majority). The personal standards I hold for myself and others along with my integrity does not match the values(or therefore lack of)found at England.

PHONE CALL WITH RECRUITER(s):

PROs

*They will set you up to attend school

CONs

*They will tell you that you can become a solo or team company driver after training. Then after training you'll be put on a waiting list that can take up to months to get a company truck, meanwhile they push their lease program on you. If you don't take it, you will sit at home.

*They will continue to tell you how your education is free. It's not! You will trade 6 months of your life or pay $3,000 for it. Nothing is free with England.


C.R. ENGLAND PREMIER TRUCK DRIVING SCHOOL/FONTANA, CALIFORNIA:

PROs:

*Get your CDL class A(if you get any endorsements other than air brakes, you will be fired. If you have endorsements other than air brakes you'd better remove them, or you will be fired.) ~ this is what my class was told by the teacher.

CONs:

*Unprofessional classroom teachers
*Lies from upper management/teachers
*Teachers/yard instructors have a bad attitude and avoid answering your questions, they usually respond with a ######## remark or belittling comment
*Teachers/yard instructors keep repeating how the education is free. It is NOT free!!! You are exchanging either 6 months of your life with a company that will lie to you about nearly everything OR you will have to pay them $3,000 plus interest
*You will not learn everything you need to know to take a truck out safely on the road
*They go on and on about the lease program, even if you're not interested


I signed up for the $0 tuition in exchange for 6 months of employment with CRE. That means that if I don't stay for at least 6 months, I owe them $3,000(plus interest!). The teachers/school management will lie to you about numerous things such as:

"We can take away your CDL after you have it if you quit working for us."

FACT: I called the California DMV in Sacramento and spoke with three different people, all of which told me that wasn't accurate or true.

"You CANNOT get doubles/triples, tanker or passenger endorsements on your CDL when we send you for the test."

FACT: YES, you CAN! They just discourage it because they don't offer opportunities to drive those types of vehicles, therefore they must assume you may quit and go elsewhere. After working with them for a while you will see why getting the endorsements is a good idea.

"Leasing is the best option!"

FACT: If you look at the numbers of drivers on the internet and at a truck stops that have decided to lease with CRE, you will see that is not true. While it is true that SOME drivers have had success with England's "fleece" forced lease program, you will find that most are "starved" on miles. My phase 1 trainer suggested I don't lease with England and even encouraged me to quit and work for a better company as soon as I had enough experience. They've also had lawsuits filed against them by numerous drivers.

"Your hotel stay during school is free."

FACT: That is another lie, it's been porked into your tuition costs!


BOTTOM LINE: If you have any money, if you can get a grant from the state or if you have to work for McDonalds for 6 months to save money to send yourself to trucking school, then do it! All of these options are better than going through the C.R. England school experience. If you're just looking for quick cash but don't really want to be a truck driver, then go to McDonalds and flip burgers. They'll pay you about $8-$10 per hour and your check will be at least $300-$400 per week after taxes. With England, I never made over $400 for a week, most checks were under $200 and I even had one for -$6 because they kept stealing money from my check that I did not authorize(on all occasions they did this).

PHASE ONE TRAINING/Dedicated Southern California to Illinois(and midwest):

During phase 1 training I was put with an owner operator. Not a lease operator, but a true owner operator. This guy had a title for his truck and owned it out right. He was a nice person and we got along fine on a personal level(he even brought me to his parent's house for dinner on our day off), but on a professional level? He wasn't a very good trainer, at all. My first night driving from Fontana California to Yuma Arizona was a nightmare. He went to sleep as I drove, with no experience except the few times around the block during school. Also, he had a 13 speed instead of the 9 speed I learned on. I came to learn in about 2 days that the 13 speed was really easy to drive, but it added stress and danger to the situation for me driving my first night. Especially since I was up at 6AM that day waiting for him(he was supposed to pick me up at 7AM)and he didn't pick me up until 8PM, I was already tired by then. We ran primarily from southern California to Chicago Illinois(where I grew up)and also spent some time in Pennsylvania, Ohio, Kentucky and Indiana. It was 2 weeks of basically just driving. I had the opportunity to back the truck up about 5 times and never really learned how to do it since he just kept telling me "turn left, turn right, go straight" etc. We never once trip planned with the road atlas, I was barely shown how to use the Qualcomm(I figured it out myself)and overall there was just not a lot of training involved. Just me driving. Phase One was the best part of my England experience, and yet it wasn't enough to get me ready to be a professional truck driver. That happened in phase 2, but not because of England, I had to teach myself.

PHASE ONE "UPGRADE"/Fontana, California/Salt Lake City, Utah:

CRE told me(and everyone else)that phase one upgrade would take 2 days, maybe 3. For me and many others in my upgrade class? It took 8. They kept dragging us back into class telling us the trucks were broke down which I found amazing because while I was in school they kept taking up my school training time to use my truck for upgrades on phase one'rs, so why wasn't that done for us? Better yet, why did we have to keep coming to class every morning to sit for 8 hours with nothing to do and then go back to the hotel? Why were we told we had to log ourselves "on duty not driving" for our paper logs when we weren't being paid? After upgrading from phase one, I sat at two different hotels in southern California for another week and a half waiting for a trainer to pick me up before finally getting put on a Greyhound bus and shipped to Salt Lake City, Utah. This is where things REALLY went down hill.


SALT LAKE CITY, UTAH HEADQUARTERS/WAITING FOR PHASE 2 TRAINER:

I kept thinking to myself that things with CRE should be getting better. I kept ignoring all of the negative commentary on the company, but to no surprise, it was all true. If you do decide to go with CRE, try to stay away from the headquarters at all costs! The energy is draining as there are many angry and pissed off students/drivers roaming the hallways, and rightfully so. Here are some of the "highlights" of the CR England facility in Salt Lake City:

*Metal detectors that you have to pass through to speak with office personnel. Gee, I wonder why?

*The food is overpriced at "Chester's Ye Old English Restaurant" located inside the training facility and it sucks(my phase 2 partner had bad food poisoning from it too, he was puking all night). AND if you want one pickle chip on your hamburger, it's an additional 40 cents. I've never seen this at a real restaurant! Also, when's the last time in any restaurant in America you've been charged for a soda refill? Almost never. At CRE Utah, you'll pay for a soda refill!! Nice way to treat your workers!

*You're treated like a piece of cattle by security, the office personnel and anyone you encounter that works there.

*A CR England T shirt will cost you $18, a hat will cost you $16 at their store. Most companies provide these uniforms free!(I know my current company does!)

*You will be forced to buy a $35 padlock for the trailer and a $5 thermostat. These can be bought at Walmart for $15 total, but CRE will tell you that you HAVE to buy it from them and it's payroll deducted. Another $40 forcefully taken from you.

I waited 3 days in SLC to be dispatched with a phase 2 trainer, instead I was dispatched in the "Q" fleet.

THE "Q" FLEET/What Should Have Been PHASE TWO:

Has England told you about their Q fleet? The Q Fleet is where you bypass phase two in exchange for training WITH ANOTHER STUDENT. That's right, you train with another student, a whole 12,000 miles with another student who knows as much(or less)than you do. I told the placement lady for phase two that it was not acceptable for me to be placed in an 80,000 pound rig with another person that knew as much as I did about driving the rig, to which she responded: "It'll get you through training quicker. Now, are you going to lease?" All she was concerned with is rushing me through phase two so I could get into the lease program(which would allow me to become a trainer with only roughly 2 months of OTR experience). I waited a total of almost 3 weeks without even being in a truck to get a phase two trainer and instead I was stuck with another student. I'd like to remind you that you ARE paying for this education either with your time or money and by them putting a person in the Q fleet they are robbing them of the chance to learn from a properly trained "professional" driver. While I was anxious to get out on my own, I wanted to be properly trained first. The Q fleet is not only a rip off to the student driver, but it's dangerous to every single person and their family who drives on any road that CR England trucks drive on. The results of poor training and having two drivers in an 80,000 pound truck together with a combined experience of 3 months leaves room for major error that can result in property damage, injury and death.

Q Fleet/Phase 2 "Training"/11 Western States:

This is where things really went downhill. It was so chaotic that it's even exhausting getting ready to write about it.Up to this point I had been patient with the companies lies, the rudeness and the lack of professionalism of their employees. Most of the loads we were dispatched on were between 400 and 600 miles. These are tailored for solo drivers and we were expected to run these as a team, therefore sleep deprivation kicked in heavily for me since I was the over night driver, but I never had the chance to drive and therefore would be up all day long and then they'd dispatch us on a long haul. Phase 2/Q fleet is also supposed to be about 2-3 weeks, ours was 6 weeks because of the companies inability to handle break downs and dispatch loads correctly.

FOUR STATE FUEL LEAKING FREIGHTLINER


BREAK DOWN NUMBER 1:
About four days in the Q, my partner and I were taking a load from southern California to Medford, Oregon, followed up by a load from Fife, Washington to Moscow, Idaho. Our 2011 Freightliner Cascadia(P.O.S)started to leak fuel somewhere in northern California. As we descended into Ashland, Oregon I noticed the drivers side drive tires were smoking on the down grade while I used the jake brake, I later discovered diesel fuel all over them. I contacted road service and informed them of the leak, they told me "deliver your load in Medford, then take it to a truck stop and call us." We took the truck to the TA truck stop in Phoenix, Oregon to get it looked at, they told us to take it to a Freightliner dealership and have it fixed. I called CRE and told them we had successfully delivered our load in Medford and that the TA suggested we go to the Freightliner dealership 1 mile down the road, road service suggested we head up to Washington to pick up our Fife load and "deal with it later." I called dispatch and he told me the same thing. Being new in the trucking business and not wanting to jeopardize our future, my partner and I decided to listen to the advice of our "professional" shop and office managers not wanting to rock the boat. After picking the load up in Fife, Washington and after making the delivery in Moscow, Idaho the leak worsened. I called my dispatcher and road service again to get the repair handled, this time being more firm as we've already entered four states with a fuel leak, I started to lose my patience with the way this was being handled, new driver "paying their dues" or not. Dispatch gave us a load picking up in Hermiston, Oregon going to San Diego, California! I called road service again with the urgency of getting the repair fixed, they told me to call our dispatcher who told us to take the load and get the leak handled "when we have time". We started heading towards Hermiston, Oregon only to run out of gas completely in the small town of Colfax, Washington. I called fuel, road service and dispatch AT LEAST 30 times this morning while walking to all four gas stations(not truck stops)seeing if they would take Comdata or a Comcheck, none of them took either. While getting bounced around rudely and dealing with attitude with every single person I spoke with, I still couldn't get the situation rectified. A girl in fuel suggested I pay for diesel at the gas station and buy a gas can with my own money, yeah right!!! I already didn't have much money to buy food with and live off of as it was(my partner had less!)and CRE doesn't have a good rep at handling payroll reimbursements in a timely fashion(and apparently handling fuel leaks in a timely fashion). 30 phone calls later and after talking to countless people I was finally authorized to call the local repair shop and see what they could do. After diagnosis we learned that they couldn't fix it, but they did put 20 gallons of diesel in our truck(and billed England)to get us to Spokane, Washington where CRE would FINALLY authorize us to fix our truck, and the nightmare was just beginning.

TRUCK REPAIR AND BREAKDOWN NUMBER 2:
My partner and I sat at the Super 8 in Spokane for 2 nights while we waited(without pay)to get our truck fixed at a lousy Freightliner repair shop. CRE said they would pay for our hotel rooms which came out to about $65 per night and they did. However, on my next paycheck they deducted $65 per night for both nights!! When I called to get the situation addressed the rude payroll people(I talked to 3 of them)argued with me and told me I wouldn't be reimbursed, to this day I still haven't been reimbursed!!! The next day after we sat for 3 days unpaid and the fuel leak was fixed we were dispatched on a load out of Pasco, Washington to Long Beach, California. We made it about 65 miles before the D.E.F sensor went out in Mattawa, WA causing the truck to not go over 5 MPH. We had to drop our trailer in Mattawa(another driver came for it)and we were towed to Yakima for repair, the shop we were towed to happened to be the sister shop to the place we were repaired by in Spokane. The one in Yakima was a little quicker and more professional, but not by much. This time CRE authorized us to stay at the Best Western in Yakima and paid with a Comcheck for $83 for one night. England ALSO took this $83 out of my check!!! ((I finally was reimbursed for the $83 on my last check because I raised hell with payroll and threatened with calling the labor board, I still have not seen the $65 for either night in Spokane.)) The shop fixed us overnight and we were off to our next delivery in Fort Worth, Texas. Our TC said we would be paid our layover pay for the breakdown, it took them 4 weeks to process it.

MY CO-DRIVER PHASE 2/SLEEP APNEA INSURANCE SCAM

During all this time my co-driver had received a negative paycheck each and every week, except the last week which was $50 after deductions. His biggest deduction? A sleep apnea machine CRE forced him to install in the truck before we left. Now, there's nothing wrong with him having to use a sleep apnea machine, what is wrong is that England's health insurance was supposed to cover the cost of the machine and instead they kept taking large chunks of money out of his check. In 6 weeks I loaned him $400 to keep him alive for food and his bills, if it wasn't for me he would have lost his car and starved. He has since paid me back $300(he still works for England, so I understand if it takes him a while to get me the other $100). His biggest check? $50. His smallest? -$75. NEGATIVE 75!!! This is indentured slavery.

SET UP FOR FAILURE: STIR FRY VEGETABLES, WAREHOUSE WORK & DISPATCHED LATE LOADS/QUALCOMM PAYROLL ISSUES

A few weeks later we had been on a load in Stockton, California with bagged Stir Fry vegetables. My partner opened the doors at the customer to dock the truck for unloading, I was in the sleeper and woke up to him cussing. I came out of the truck to see an entire pallet full of stir fry vegetables busted open on the ground and in the back of the truck. The shipper had overloaded the trailer and didn't secure the load properly, #### happens. We put the product back in the trailer as best we could, the receiver rejected the load, of course, so I called my dispatcher to see what needed to be done. He told us to unload the entire pallet and reload it and that they would pay us to do so, though he couldn't tell me what we would be paid. I told him they were taking money out of my check and we still hadn't been paid break down pay from Washington 4 weeks prior and that I didn't trust them to pay, I refused to unload and re-stack the pallets , not only because of the pay, but because the boxes were damaged and it was a waste of time. About 30 minutes later I came back out of the truck to see that my partner had started to attempt to reload the pallet, I decided to help him because after all, we were both getting the shaft by CRE and we just wanted to get going with our next load. Our dispatcher then set us up to pick up a loaded trailer at the Stockton yard and take it to Portland, Oregon with only 9 hours to do it. However, he wanted us to go back to the customer in Stockton with the stir fry load and deliver the load. I told him this would make us late for our Oregon delivery and he said "make it work!". Luckily enough, the receiver in Stockton rejected our load again(which I KNEW they would and I told the dispatcher that in the first place)so we dropped the trailer at the Stockton yard(with permission from our DM)and took the load up to Portland, we were only an hour late, imagine if we had not been rejected in Stockton, we would have probably been 5 hours late. During my time in shipping/receiving and as a dispatcher I NEVER encouraged drivers to handle a situation the way we were handled. We did not receive any extra pay for our efforts to reload the pallet, nor to deal with all the other BS. Also, despite the Qualcomm saying every single load we took was to pay 15 cents per mile, we were actually making 12 cents per mile on top of all this and when I called payroll the girl told me "it's 25 cents per mile for the truck, thats 12 cents per mile each" I corrected her math and told her "thats 24 cents per mile for the truck if its 12 each", she didn't like that and they kept dispatching us at 15 CPM, we only saw the 12 CPM in the long run, more lies.


MY FINAL DELIVERY AT CR ENGLAND/THE CONCLUSION

My last deliveryat C.R. England was the final straw of their disorganization and head games. Our dispatcher had been running us late on loads(I believe intentionally because we didn't want to lease, and we told them that)and we had requested time off almost 2 weeks ahead of time. I sent a Qualcomm message requesting 4 days off BEFORE my phase 2 upgrade since I had not had a day off since February and this was the last few days of May. On Monday, my partner and I were authorized to take that up and coming Saturday/Sunday off. Our load was from Kennewick, Washington down to southern California with a four stop deliver. Santa Ana, Ontario, Riverside and Moreno Valley. The first delivered Wednesday, 2 and 3 on Thursday and the fourth one on Friday. We averaged about 150 miles for 4 days of work, they could've given us a load to Phoenix, Stockton or Salt Lake and back, but instead decided to starve us in SoCal. My partner and I worked it out where he would deliver these loads and I could go home for a few days seeing how when we got to Mira Loma, CA on Monday morning I only had 2 hours left on my 70 and he had more. We both had Tuesday off(long overdue)...or so I thought...I come to learn that dispatch wanted us to drop the trailer on Tuesday in Mira Loma and take a load to Butte, Montana followed by a load routing us back to Salt Lake City for phase 2 upgrade. I was out of hours and there was no way we would be back in time for our approved Saturday/Sunday off in SoCal. My partner declined the load due to hours and decided to deliver the 4 local loads in the LA area. I didn't hear anything from my TC or dispatcher from Monday morning all the way until Friday when I called my dispatcher and asked him if we were getting back to Salt Lake on Monday/Tuesday for upgrade. He informed me that my partner had been running solo loads to Las Vegas and Los Angeles on Thursday and Friday and that he was disappointed I didn't take the load to Montana. How could I? I was out of hours and I wasn't going to jeopardize my 2 days off in nearly 3 months or get a log violation from DOT for a dispatcher that put us through hell for 6 weeks.

That week while I was at home I spoke with 6 trucking companies thinking that I may not be able to find a job with another company, all 6 of them offered me a position and I accepted with the one I felt was the best fit for me at this time. I told my partner I wasn't going back to SLC for upgrade(which he was cool with)and that I would turn my fuel cards in at Mira Loma. Our load was finished and I left my truck with my partner in Mira Loma that Monday, I was instructed by corporate to turn the fuel cards in with security at Mira Loma and I did so on Sunday before starting with my new company the following day. I called my TC to inform her that I would no longer be working with CR England and as usual, I wasn't able to reach her. I left her a detailed voicemail with my return number in case she had any questions for me, I haven't heard from anyone at England since(except my partner, who isn't happy with them either).

I haven't listed everything that happened at CRE because the list is exhausting to look at. I put the main details in this lengthy review because I wanted to shine a bright light on why I would not recommend this company or their school to any driver, especially those who have a lot on their plate, such as family or mortgages. I am a hard worker, honest and I believe in having integrity, as a driver, a dispatcher, a shipper/receiver and most of all as a human being. CR England as a company is not honest, does not have integrity but I will say they do work hard at finding ways to make money off the backs of their workers and at their workers expense. I have no respect for the England family and the way they conduct themselves. I stayed with England for about 95 days or so, just long enough to get in some experience and hold onto my hat while I looked for a better opportunity. I have found a company that meets my needs and have already been treated with the respect and integrity I give and deserve in return. I've been in this business long enough to know that there are rough times and #### happens, but when #### starts raining on you, make sure you're with a company that will be there to HELP you and not intentionally #### you at every chance they can.

Whether or not you decide to drive or go to school with C.R. England I wish you the best, I hope you find my review and my experience helpful(it's been a costly one). Not everyone is a "whiny driver", I know I'm certainly not, but the truth of evil doings by people needs to be exposed, especially in this modern day corporate takeover. If my review isn't enough to convince you about the truth behind C.R. England, feel free to search the internet for other stories from other people who have become victims to their scam.

Like most things in life if you dig deep enough, you'll find the truth. Find the truth about C.R. England, and you'll see clearly why, every new graduate leaves after ninety days.

 

I'd like to address a few statements and clarify a few things

I'm a writer and I like to investigate things as thoroughly as possible, get to the truth of the issue and try to stay as emotionally detached from what I write about in cases like these, which is also difficult because what I'm writing about is based on emotions. Some of you found my grammar and punctuation to be good, but I'd like to clarify that I'm not a college student, not even a high school graduate at that. I have a GED, but with that GED I have a brain that works and a heart that desires to understand things. I'm personally not a big fan of "higher education" in most cases because the system just takes money from the students and tells them to regurgitate what they've been told to pass tests. Business seems to lack heart, the trucking business is obviously no different, especially at England. You can't teach a person how to think or follow their feelings in school. By the way, I tend to think my grammar isn't that great truthfully lol, I'm more concerned with getting the point across than worrying about periods and spelling. Thank you all for the compliment though.

texasmorrell mentioned a few things I'd like to respond to:

1. I totally agree with that. This post wasn't a complaint about my contract, it's to give people a chance to see what they may(more likely, what they will)end up dealing with at Englands school and working for them.

2. I didn't pay for any repair myself, they encouraged me to pay for diesel, not the repair, they just strung the repair out for longer than it should have been. I also didn't pay for the hotel up front, they did with a company comcheck(not my comdata card)but then they deducted it out of my paycheck on 3 occasions even after I gave them an authorization request, express code AND original receipt copies with my Trip Pak(I, of course made copies for myself). As I stated they reimbursed the last hotel but not the 2 nights from the first break down. Taking them to small claims court over $130 would cost me more than it's worth in lost revenue from working my new job. This is just a warning of what others can expect.

3. I completely agree with your statement on this too. As a new driver with no experience I was worried about being able to get hired elsewhere, my DAC report, etc. Of course, in retrospect I realize now that driving like that and getting caught may have actually jeopardize my trucking future even more. I was stressed, only sleeping 3-4 hours a night and worried, which I'm not using as an excuse, just as a statement of fact. Another thing potential England students/employees can expect is a lot of stress, worry and sleep deprivation. All of these things will effect your ability to perform your job, especially if you have concerns back home and you're not getting paid/treated right. Stay away.

4. I wasn't with CRE that long by industry standards(though by my standards 1 day is too long lol), only about 95 days or so. I started calling other companies around day 60 but they wouldn't take me(except Swift, a.k.a England #2 lol)so when I tried again with over 90 days experience, the opportunities to work elsewhere opened up. They didn't tell me about no company trucks until I called in before phase 2 upgrade. I was getting my time in to go to another carrier. I heard from a lot of other students that I kept in touch with though, that got sent home to "wait" for a company truck. As for the school tuition, what you said is exactly what I'm doing. Most guys were saying to me "if I leave before 6 months I'll owe $3,000!!" to which I always replied "but if you stay you'll LOSE the opportunity to make over $3,000!!! Just get your 3 months in and go elsewhere, then pay for the tuition!". I never paid for a hotel room, I never needed to take a bus home because I never returned to Utah, I KNEW they were going to "upgrade" me after phase 2 and tell me "Lease or go home and wait for company truck" so I beat them to it and my partner drove the truck back to SLC, Utah while I went to orientation with my new company.

Live and learn, SO TRUE!!!

rollin coal - lol! I think deep down I knew they weren't going to treat me differently. But here was my situation...I fell on really hard times financially(and personally)and wanted to get my CDL. I was offered to go with England or Swift for school, Swift didn't guarantee employment but England did. All the private schools were too much money and I had to wait 90 days to SEE if I'd qualify for a grant. I was eating dry Ramen Noodles and living in my mini van at this point, that's how destitute I was. I told myself I'd get my CDL through CRE, give them a chance to train me and give me some OTR experience(why not? I need at least 3 months to go elsewhere so I took advantage of that). I intuitively felt before I ever climbed into my phase 1 truck that they'd try to force the lease so I started looking for an out(other OTR carriers and North Dakota oil boom companies)and just had faith that something would work out, which it did.

I found a way to stay ahead of the game with CRE up until phase 2 really, and I worked their lousy system to my advantage. I made the best choice I thought I could with what was in front of me while sitting in my mini van deciding between England and Swift(I would've picked Swift IF they offered employment too upon graduation). I'm new here and decided to write about my experience(I do that for just about everything in my life)and share it on the Truckers Report so other students/drivers could maybe find a better way to get their CDL or work for a better company. I hope that anyone who reads this will at least know what to expect if they choose to school or work with CRE.

Thanks for the commentary, I'm excited to be posting here!