Unsecured load

DDlighttruck · Apr 22, 2017

Ke6gwf said: ↑

You are off on a few points.

First of all, I was talking about the conditions of the OP story, where the indirect tiedowns were only going straight across the load, not applying any forward or backwards direct force.
With such tiedowns, the only force acting forward or backwards is from friction.
So it is more than just adding up the strap ratings, because you have a low friction situation.

I agree that putting a few straps pulling to the front and rear would work, but that wasn't what we were talking about, which is straps straight across (since your sliding winch straps can basically only be used straight across)

The rules actually state that the Securement "System" must restrain at 80, 50, 50, 20% of cargo weight, and if you are using indirect tiedowns then friction is what is preventing the motion.

With normal dressed lumber and steel loads, you get enough friction from the downward force of the straps but you also have a lot of surface area and friction.

This falls under the special load, low friction category, and so needs more than just the normal downforce.

From FMCSA handbook :
"Tiedowns that pass over the cargo work by increasing the effective weight of the cargo (make the cargo seem heavier). This increases the pressure of the cargo on the deck and keeps the cargo from shifting.

Tension these tiedowns to as high an initial tension as possible.

The steeper the tiedown angle, the less shifting (ideally more than 45).

What should you use in low-friction situations?

When there is low friction between the cargo and the deck:

Use tiedowns attached to the cargo.

Use a means to improve the friction such as friction mats or tiedown that pass over the cargo.

Use blocking and tiedowns."

I am also not sure what you are talking about when you say it takes more for rearward than forward.

Fmcsa:
"Forward Force = 80% of cargo weight when braking while driving straight ahead.
Rearward Force = 50% of cargo weight when accelerating, shifting gears while climbing a hill, or braking in reverse.
Sideways Force = 50% of cargo weight when turning, changing lanes, or braking while turning.
Upward Force = 20% of cargo weight when traveling over bumps in the road or cresting a hill."

So it is less for rearward than forward, which makes sense unless you have a rocket powered truck lol

And yes, if you are using indirect tiedowns, than you can halve the tiedown rating so 80% would be 40% (where does .435 come from?), etc.

Oh, and you have to use Working Load Limit, not Ultimate Breaking Strength, that is a completely different rating.

Fmcsa:
"Note: Friction mats, which are not marked by the manufacturer, are assumed to provide a resistance to horizontal movement equal to 50% of the cargo weight that is resting on the mat."

So Dot does look at friction, and will spot a low-friction situation, and look for a proper securement system to compensate for it.
Click to expand...

Wtf? Did I just read you're a door swinger and now quoting sections from the regs about open deck securement? My little green bible is in the truck where it belongs or I'd be quoting from it. I trust JDs math and advice a lot more than you. Why? Because he pulls open deck and is very knowledgeable.

johndeere4020 · Apr 22, 2017

Ke6gwf said: ↑

You are off on a few points.

First of all, I was talking about the conditions of the OP story, where the indirect tiedowns were only going straight across the load, not applying any forward or backwards direct force.
With such tiedowns, the only force acting forward or backwards is from friction.
So it is more than just adding up the strap ratings, because you have a low friction situation.

I agree that putting a few straps pulling to the front and rear would work, but that wasn't what we were talking about, which is straps straight across (since your sliding winch straps can basically only be used straight across)

The rules actually state that the Securement "System" must restrain at 80, 50, 50, 20% of cargo weight, and if you are using indirect tiedowns then friction is what is preventing the motion.

With normal dressed lumber and steel loads, you get enough friction from the downward force of the straps but you also have a lot of surface area and friction.

This falls under the special load, low friction category, and so needs more than just the normal downforce.

From FMCSA handbook :
"Tiedowns that pass over the cargo work by increasing the effective weight of the cargo (make the cargo seem heavier). This increases the pressure of the cargo on the deck and keeps the cargo from shifting.

Tension these tiedowns to as high an initial tension as possible.

The steeper the tiedown angle, the less shifting (ideally more than 45).

What should you use in low-friction situations?

When there is low friction between the cargo and the deck:

Use tiedowns attached to the cargo.

Use a means to improve the friction such as friction mats or tiedown that pass over the cargo.

Use blocking and tiedowns."

I am also not sure what you are talking about when you say it takes more for rearward than forward.

Fmcsa:
"Forward Force = 80% of cargo weight when braking while driving straight ahead.
Rearward Force = 50% of cargo weight when accelerating, shifting gears while climbing a hill, or braking in reverse.
Sideways Force = 50% of cargo weight when turning, changing lanes, or braking while turning.
Upward Force = 20% of cargo weight when traveling over bumps in the road or cresting a hill."

So it is less for rearward than forward, which makes sense unless you have a rocket powered truck lol

And yes, if you are using indirect tiedowns, than you can halve the tiedown rating so 80% would be 40% (where does .435 come from?), etc.

Oh, and you have to use Working Load Limit, not Ultimate Breaking Strength, that is a completely different rating.

Fmcsa:
"Note: Friction mats, which are not marked by the manufacturer, are assumed to provide a resistance to horizontal movement equal to 50% of the cargo weight that is resting on the mat."

So Dot does look at friction, and will spot a low-friction situation, and look for a proper securement system to compensate for it.
Click to expand...

Well let's see if I can hit all this, let's start here. We get pipe deliveries all the time, ductile iron pipe for example is heavy usually 20 foot joints that have 2 4X4's under each layer. So you've got 20' of pipe setting on 8" of wood and they are always strapped. So you have 20 foot of pipe weighing several thousand pounds with straps over it and it'll pass dot inspection anywhere in America. How are they controlling forward movement? How do you figure the coefficient of friction on that load? You don't that's how.

Next your 80 50 50 statement is based on breaking strength of the tiedown not working load limit. Here's a screenshot directly from the fmcsa site, and it clearly states "breaking strength"

Here's where I got the 0.435G's

This refers to the working load limit which is what we go by because that's what we are supposed to go by. For example the WLL of a 3/8 grade 7 chain is 6600#, what's its breaking strength? I don't know off hand without looking it up and I don't need to because it's irrelevant just like they teach us when learning rigging.

I want one person to tell me a first hand account of someone getting a citation for not meeting this criteria.

Can you show me where you got

Forward Force = 80% of cargo weight when braking while driving straight ahead.
Rearward Force = 50% of cargo weight when accelerating, shifting gears while climbing a hill, or braking in reverse.
Sideways Force = 50% of cargo weight when turning, changing lanes, or braking while turning.
Upward Force = 20% of cargo weight when traveling over bumps in the road or cresting a hill."
Click to expand...

Or

The rules actually state that the Securement "System" must restrain at 80, 50, 50, 20% of cargo weight, and if you are using indirect tiedowns then friction is what is preventing the motion.
Click to expand...

I can't find it, I'm sure I missed something so let me know I'll address it.

shovel98 · Apr 22, 2017

You should have just told second steering holder not going to load you send out another truck. We don't load anyone not wearing at least proper gear for open deck work shorts and flip flops big no in my world it tells me he's a clown and don't know what he's doing. Me I've hualed them before chain the front to hold back and lay rubber strap protectors down and strap the rest notice I said rubber not plastic edge protectors. And throwing straps over a tarp just plain lazy and stupid. One other thing you could have done is call the dot not nice but I have family that travels these roads and so do a lot others also and the bad know nothing steering holders need to learn from mistakes by getting fines or whatever. Because most shippers and brokers don't care who huals for them as long as it's cheap.

LoudOne · Apr 22, 2017

Ke6gwf said: ↑

You are off on a few points.

First of all, I was talking about the conditions of the OP story, where the indirect tiedowns were only going straight across the load, not applying any forward or backwards direct force.
With such tiedowns, the only force acting forward or backwards is from friction.
So it is more than just adding up the strap ratings, because you have a low friction situation.

I agree that putting a few straps pulling to the front and rear would work, but that wasn't what we were talking about, which is straps straight across (since your sliding winch straps can basically only be used straight across)

The rules actually state that the Securement "System" must restrain at 80, 50, 50, 20% of cargo weight, and if you are using indirect tiedowns then friction is what is preventing the motion.

With normal dressed lumber and steel loads, you get enough friction from the downward force of the straps but you also have a lot of surface area and friction.

This falls under the special load, low friction category, and so needs more than just the normal downforce.

From FMCSA handbook :
"Tiedowns that pass over the cargo work by increasing the effective weight of the cargo (make the cargo seem heavier). This increases the pressure of the cargo on the deck and keeps the cargo from shifting.

Tension these tiedowns to as high an initial tension as possible.

The steeper the tiedown angle, the less shifting (ideally more than 45).

What should you use in low-friction situations?

When there is low friction between the cargo and the deck:

Use tiedowns attached to the cargo.

Use a means to improve the friction such as friction mats or tiedown that pass over the cargo.

Use blocking and tiedowns."

I am also not sure what you are talking about when you say it takes more for rearward than forward.

Fmcsa:
"Forward Force = 80% of cargo weight when braking while driving straight ahead.
Rearward Force = 50% of cargo weight when accelerating, shifting gears while climbing a hill, or braking in reverse.
Sideways Force = 50% of cargo weight when turning, changing lanes, or braking while turning.
Upward Force = 20% of cargo weight when traveling over bumps in the road or cresting a hill."

So it is less for rearward than forward, which makes sense unless you have a rocket powered truck lol

And yes, if you are using indirect tiedowns, than you can halve the tiedown rating so 80% would be 40% (where does .435 come from?), etc.

Oh, and you have to use Working Load Limit, not Ultimate Breaking Strength, that is a completely different rating.

Fmcsa:
"Note: Friction mats, which are not marked by the manufacturer, are assumed to provide a resistance to horizontal movement equal to 50% of the cargo weight that is resting on the mat."

So Dot does look at friction, and will spot a low-friction situation, and look for a proper securement system to compensate for it.
Click to expand...

If you rely on a book that says this is your MINIMUM requirement for securing a load. Do us all a favour and leave flat bedding to real men......

Ke6gwf · Apr 22, 2017

DDlighttruck said: ↑

Wtf? Did I just read you're a door swinger and now quoting sections from the regs about open deck securement? My little green bible is in the truck where it belongs or I'd be quoting from it. I trust JDs math and advice a lot more than you. Why? Because he pulls open deck and is very knowledgeable.
Click to expand...

What I said was, for the last few months I decided to try door slamming, but that is after about 20 years of open deck, heavy haul, rigging, towing, etc.

So instead of trusting my math or his, look at the numbers yourself and see what fits the Book.

johndeere4020 · Apr 22, 2017

Ke6gwf said: ↑

What I said was, for the last few months I decided to try door slamming, but that is after about 20 years of open deck, heavy haul, rigging, towing, etc.

So instead of trusting my math or his, look at the numbers yourself and see what fits the Book.
Click to expand...

I have looked at the numbers and I posted a screenshot directly from the FMCSA website. You have made a claim and I've asked you to show me some kind of documentation, I'll wait.

LoudOne · Apr 22, 2017

johndeere4020 said: ↑

I have looked at the numbers and I posted a screenshot directly from the FMCSA website. You have made a claim and I've asked you to show me some kind of documentation, I'll wait.
Click to expand...

You also pointed out something he questioned you on THAT WAS IN THE BOOK HE WAS QUOTING. I think you may know what your talking about a little bit @johndeere4020

DDlighttruck · Apr 22, 2017

Ke6gwf said: ↑

What I said was, for the last few months I decided to try door slamming, but that is after about 20 years of open deck, heavy haul, rigging, towing, etc.

So instead of trusting my math or his, look at the numbers yourself and see what fits the Book.
Click to expand...

Oh I have. And like I stated I trust JD a lot more than you. You sir seem to troll the open deck section. JD provides real life experience and knowledge, as well as a continuing update on how the regs change. There are actual professionals who contribute to this site, and have lots of wisdom they happily share with us rookies. You seem to want to just stir the pot.

I'll put money that JD knows his stuff, and your ####### is sucking canal water.

Ke6gwf · Apr 22, 2017

johndeere4020 said: ↑

Well let's see if I can hit all this, let's start here. We get pipe deliveries all the time, ductile iron pipe for example is heavy usually 20 foot joints that have 2 4X4's under each layer. So you've got 20' of pipe setting on 8" of wood and they are always strapped. So you have 20 foot of pipe weighing several thousand pounds with straps over it and it'll pass dot inspection anywhere in America. How are they controlling forward movement? How do you figure the coefficient of friction on that load? You don't that's how.

Next your 80 50 50 statement is based on breaking strength of the tiedown not working load limit. Here's a screenshot directly from the fmcsa site, and it clearly states "breaking strength"

View attachment 177853

Here's where I got the 0.435G's

View attachment 177855

This refers to the working load limit which is what we go by because that's what we are supposed to go by. For example the WLL of a 3/8 grade 7 chain is 6600#, what's its breaking strength? I don't know off hand without looking it up and I don't need to because it's irrelevant just like they teach us when learning rigging.

I want one person to tell me a first hand account of someone getting a citation for not meeting this criteria.

Can you show me where you got

Or

I can't find it, I'm sure I missed something so let me know I'll address it.
Click to expand...

I quoted from :
https://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/regulations/cargo-securement/drivers-handbook-cargo-securement

Chapter 1 and 2

Can you give me the URL or chapter/section of where you got your quote about breaking strength?
I can't find it, and it looks like you screenshotted it from an old post on this forum, not directly from FMCSA.

bigguns · Apr 22, 2017

m16ty said: ↑

It's a little different than pulling a extended. On a extended, all the straps on the load are helping hold the load, as to not impale the driver if he has a head-on. On that setup, only thing keeping the poles off the cab is the straps on the bolster, I see two. I don't doubt the legality but I do know some states won't allow that setup without special permission. I'd haul it and have hauled worse but you just have to be aware that you are going to eat those poles if you come to a sudden stop.

I agree with friction and on some loads (like the poles posted), friction is about all you have to work with. Friction can be overcome though and I like to have positive attachment if possible.

I guess I just come from a rigging background and look at things a little different than some. I'm always thinking a few steps ahead, you have to in the rigging game or people die. You always have to think "if this happens, it will cause this to happen, and how do I keep this from happening in the first place, and if it does, what do we need to do".

On the sod trucks, that is bad. The truth is though, if one of those sod pallets come off, the likely outcome would be people would get a little dirt and grass on there cars. Sure, it could be much worse, with loss of life, but the likely outcome would be some dirty cars with a few dents. On the load I posted in the original post, if it fell off and hit a car, the likely outcome would be serious bodily injury to the occupants of the vehicle. Sure, they could walk away without a scratch but the likely outcome would be serious. It just seems there are a whole lot of drivers that fail to see the difference in a 25K piece of steel and pallets of sod.
Click to expand...

Having hauled and handled sod I can tell you that sod is something that needs to be secured the same as any other cargo. As said earlier physics is physics. A pallet or a load of sod flying off off a trailer can be as brutally destructive as steel, bricks, shingles, etc.

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