CAT C15 /6NZ trouble continues

Discussion in 'Heavy Duty Diesel Truck Mechanics Forum' started by truck 307, Dec 20, 2017.

  1. truck 307

    truck 307 Light Load Member

    178
    315
    Aug 11, 2014
    0
    I appreciate your help. But my question is why can I merge onto a 65 mph highway full throttle, 140,000 lbs gross and all is well. And never have I had an issue pulling from a dead stop, through 10 of 18 gears, and then, as prolonged periods occur before grabbing next gear as it pulls to higher RPM , only then it starts.
    And at 48 mph with foot mildly on accelerator it starts chugging, like I'm on and off the throttle 5x per second, not violently bad but it's there.
    I understand what your saying about bad sealing of injectors, but why can I pull hard/ heavy for 2 to 3 minutes and all is well.
    It seams like once I'm up to speed (65mph) , back our of it for 5 seconds and back on it, wow, it's nasty bad.
    Yet if it's acting up and my foot is off throttle for 5+ seconds( rolling down a grade) and put foot to floor again, she'll pull the stink off a turd she pulls so good. I vision it unlike it actually is, like I'm running out of fuel and backing completely off throttle for 5+ seconds fills it back up, weird.
    If I didn't know I've already got a new fuel pump, I'd point at it saying there's a pump flow issue.
    Does anyone know of pump issues, new or otherwise ?
     
    SAR Thanks this.
  2. Truckers Report Jobs

    Trucking Jobs in 30 seconds

    Every month 400 people find a job with the help of TruckersReport.

  3. truck 307

    truck 307 Light Load Member

    178
    315
    Aug 11, 2014
    0
    I just posted a reply to you but don't see it. I signed it but where did it go?
    I'm pooped. Off to bed.
    Quickly, it basically said how I appreciate your help but I'm kind of confused.
    Loaded with 140000 pounds I can merge onto a highway foot to the floor and it pulls great provided I stay on the throttle.
    From a dead standstill I've never had any issues going through the first 10 of 18 gears, but once the time is prolonged between shifting gears as my RPMs climb to pull that kind of weight that's when it all starts.
    If it's stuttering going down the highway and I take my foot off the throttle to go down a mild grade and then put my foot back into it again after a 5 Second rest it pulls absolutely fantastic.
    If I'm going down the highway at 65 miles an hour and for a second or two I take my foot off the throttle and then get back into it again then it starts shaking and shuddering like it's running out of fuel.
    If I didn't already put a new fuel pump in well over a year ago trying to rectify this problem I'd say there was a problem with the fuel pump.
    Does anybody know of any issues with cat fuel pumps?
    If I had problems with the injector seats would I not have problems across the board with what I previously noted that I do without issues?
    Thanks again for your continued help and I look forward to any support you or anybody else can give me.
    I'm off to bed have a good night
     
    SAR Thanks this.
  4. Truckers Report Jobs

    Trucking Jobs in 30 seconds

    Every month 400 people find a job with the help of TruckersReport.

  5. swaan

    swaan Road Train Member

    2,942
    4,374
    Jul 12, 2009
    BC canada
    0
    Generally you should be having most your issues at full load high rpm or where peak cylinder pressures is highest.

    This is why your engine does it most in the high gears not in the first half of the trans. Your going to be loading the engine the most in the upper gears.

    As far as the rest of it , well...... heat , rpm , cylinder pressure spikes all play a role in when it leaks most or if it leaks at all.

    I do know that there is a local injector builder in my town that custom built his own tool to machine those seats. He used to work for cat and has seen this same problem time and time again . Cat wont touch the seats but they will sell you a new head. So he had a special tool made to fix these issues with out taking the head off.

    Just like truckenginemachinest.
     
    Cat sdp and SAR Thank this.
  6. Dino soar

    Dino soar Road Train Member

    4,791
    26,878
    Dec 8, 2017
    0
    This is just a thought and maybe you've already looked into this. Let me just say I know absolutely nothing about electronic engines and I only deal with mechanical engines, but I just have a question or a thought anyway.

    Could this be a computer problem? Could the computer have some kind of a glitch that over a certain speed or certain duration of pull or whatever that it just misreads the sensors and throws everything into problem mode?

    Like I said, I know very little about it, but couldn't the computer itself or something computer-related cause this type of difficult to diagnose problem?
     
  7. fredh

    fredh Bobtail Member

    22
    42
    Apr 20, 2015
    0
    Are your problems more pronounced when the temps are low verses warm weather?
     
  8. spsauerland

    spsauerland Road Train Member

    4,296
    10,887
    May 31, 2010
    West Harrison, In
    0
    You could head to local dealer or Cat parts house and pick up six injector o-ring kits and injector hold down bolts. Pull all six injectors and take pics off six injectors focusing on area between lower and middle o-ring and pics of seat in cylinder head. Post all pics here and we tell you if you have an injector seat issue.
     
    Cat sdp, SAR, swaan and 1 other person Thank this.
  9. truck 307

    truck 307 Light Load Member

    178
    315
    Aug 11, 2014
    0
    Thanks for all the help and thoughts guys.
    To answer all questions, and knowing some of y'all haven't read the entire post since it 1st started ( and I probably won't be reading it either, it's lonģ, complicated and turned into a novel)
    The ECM has been swapped out 2 X
    Once with a used ECM ( thanks to a mobile tech, once a 22 year CAT mechanic who tried diligently to resolve my issue) and a 2nd time by CAT, a brand new ECM I tried for 3+ weeks. No resolution.
    Injector seals replaced 3x and examined in depth on injector extraction. I don't know what CAT found if anything when they put 6 new injectors in under warranty, but no reference was made to seals or other issues when I asked them if any signs existed pointing to blow by on any injector.
    Test after elaborate test performed on contaminated fuel flow ( air in fuel) both pre and post head, 2 sight glasses tied off on passenger mirror to monitor as I drove ( tech in pass seat, district manager in bunk) pulling 139,880 Lbs up a huge grade +++ a bunch of miles. No air bubbles at all, but did stumble in their presence.
     
  10. Dino soar

    Dino soar Road Train Member

    4,791
    26,878
    Dec 8, 2017
    0
    My last question is, is it possible that there is something aside from the ECM that is in the engine management system that is causing these problems?

    For example, if there was a wire or a resistor or a sensor that monitors, say, your air intake, and for whatever reason it indicated momentarily that you were bringing less air into the engine and then more and then less than more, that would cause the computer to interrupt your fuel flow. I would be pretty certain that there are other monitored systems on there that are not related to your fuel flow they could probably do the same thing. I know that it's over simplified, but it's almost like your accelerator isn't sending the right signal at certain times. Or there is something interfering with the signal. Or there's a resistor somewhere that can't take the continued load. Like I said all of those sensors and signals contribute to how the ECM makes adjustments.

    I just find it very interesting that you only have these problems under certain conditions. You have been extremely diligent in trying to find these problems, but I would think if it was a mechanical problem you would have found it by now.

    It's something to think about anyway.

    To all the guys out there that know everything about these Electronics, is there some way there's something in that engine management system aside from the ECM that could cause these problems?

    Best of luck buddy.
     
    SAR Thanks this.
  11. truck 307

    truck 307 Light Load Member

    178
    315
    Aug 11, 2014
    0
    Thanks Dino Soar for your help.
    Over the past , now quickly approaching 24 months, here's some of the items I've replaced. Ive often wondered if I'm missing something though. If anyone knows of something being missed, please, kick my butt and tell me.
    Here's the list of parts changed etc;
    -Injector wiring harness
    -engine side, wiring harness
    -throttle position sensor
    -fuel pressure regulator valve
    -fuel temp sensor
    - air intake sensor
    -boost sensor
    -crank sensor
    -cam sensor
    - atmospheric pressure sensor
    -fuel supply lines (from both tanks etc)
    -fuel pump
    -fuel divider valve
    -fuel divertor valve
    -primary fuel filter housing
    -added a secondary fuel pump
    "AIR DOG , Fuel / Air seperator system.
    -disconnected Air Dog.
    -Fuel tanks dropped to check suction tubes/ pick-up tubes
    -Exhaust system dis-assembled to check for plugging.
    -CAT installed a new ECM, about 3 weeks thereafter it was removed as it made zero change.
    - Air to air pressure tested many times
    - fuel pre & post head checked under load for any sort of air etc.
    -CAT installed 6 new injectors (warranťy)
    ●I think I'm missing at least 1 if not 2 more sensors or other which I changed but can't currently think of ●
     
    Dino soar, Oxbow and SAR Thank this.
  12. truck 307

    truck 307 Light Load Member

    178
    315
    Aug 11, 2014
    0
    Hey guys.
    I'm reworking on the truck, trying to figure out my problem once again.
    Schematics indicate 3 positive and 3 negative power supplies to the ECM.
    One set ( pos and neg) are connected at battery. 2nd set is also at batterys .
    3rd set shows ( basically states but doesn't show) the power wire being connected at ignition circuit.
    Is the actually connection at the ignition switch? Or is the actual connection made on a ignition circuit elsewhere?
    With thanks. !!
     
    SAR and Oxbow Thank this.
  13. pushbroom

    pushbroom Road Train Member

    1,779
    7,312
    Sep 1, 2012
    0
    Pins 48&52&53 are powered from the fuse in the batt box. 63&65&67 are grounded from the batt box. Both of these join up to just 1 power and 1 ground wire in the engine harness. They then go to a 2 pin deutsch connector behind the starter then down the the batteries.
    Pin 70 on the ecm is the keyed power switch. It goes into the cab, through a fuse in the fusebox then up to the keyswitch.
     
  • Truckers Report Jobs

    Trucking Jobs in 30 seconds

    Every month 400 people find a job with the help of TruckersReport.