PC - somewhere between use and abuse

Discussion in 'ELD Forum | Questions, Answers and Reviews' started by TallJoe, Dec 26, 2019.

  1. TallJoe

    TallJoe Road Train Member

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    Real life cases that are not suggested in the FMCSA guidances about PC use:

    Well let's say it is all hypothetical...lol
    Case 1. I was 30 minutes before the end of my 11 and 14. I went from VA to IN. the delivery was to Valapariaso, IN. I arrived in Gary, IN at Petro. It was Friday night and the delivery was on Monday. Lots of empty spots there....I switched to Off duty PC and went home arriving past 1 hour on my 11 and 14 hours. No violations were shown on my Keeptruckin app. The move was not advancing me toward the receiver nor - in form or fashion - helped me business wise. Quite the contrary: Additional 140 miles both ways and about $70 in tolls. I did not gain any additional HOS time either.
    Should I have waited there until 5 am in the morning and move after 8 hours? But.... nowhere does it say that I need to do that...it just says that I can't drive while fatigued. Well...I was not. I wanted to go home and eat a hot supper and sleep in my King-size bed in total silence, I hated the thought of staying there ... in stinking Gary, IN.

    Additional cases are welcome...
     
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  3. TallJoe

    TallJoe Road Train Member

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    No point of crawling under 5mph. Every little positional change is inserted into the darn outputfile...so you move 3 mph to a shipping dock ...hoping not to interrupt that 2 hours of sleeper...now way Jose. It won't show on your log but it will show in the output file. Some brutal and hateful DOT can even say that it is a "false log" and put you OOS for 10 hours...
    Case2. Yes. You've been there for 6.5 hours and you're told to get the hell out of the dock. Are you going to waste your sleeper time by going down on line 4 and logging "Check out shipper/receiver: Signing BOLs and closing the trailer door"? What if you just continue the sleeper by going to a rest place on PC disragarding 3 -5 minutes of that check out procedure ...Pretending, it did not happen or it had happened before you switched to sleeper... (e.i. you pre signed the BOL before you got loaded) still who closed your door before you left the facility is the question that remains? Some places can do it - you back in the dock with closed door and then you leave the dock loaded, doors closed and sealed. Would you not be tempted to do that...vs going to a rest place for at least another 8 hours? That's of course a false log. But is it the purpose of the HOS to put you down to sleeper for another 8 hours really and does it make sense?
     
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2019
  4. Opus

    Opus Road Train Member

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    well, seems like you're goo to go except.......
    May a driver use personal conveyance when they run out of available (driving/on-duty) hours?

    No, except for the one exception described in the guidance where a driver who runs out of hours while at a shipper’s or receiver’s facility may drive from that facility to a nearby, safe location to park, provided that the driver allows adequate time to obtain rest in accordance with daily minimum off-duty periods under the Hours of Service rules before beginning to drive. Personal conveyance is those times where a driver is operating solely for a non-business purpose and cannot be used to extend the duty day.

    That said,
    How is personal conveyance time calculated in the hours-of-service rules?

    Time spent under personal conveyance is off-duty time.
    Personal Conveyance: Frequently Asked Questions | FMCSA

    Soooooo........seems like if you weren't out of hours BEFORE you started PC, you're good to go. At least that's how I read it.
    @kemosabi49 might have a different opinion
     
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  5. JonJon78

    JonJon78 Road Train Member

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    IMO yes you are in violation. Should have taken 8 hours off in gary then drove home.
     
  6. TallJoe

    TallJoe Road Train Member

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    Yes. I deliberately stoped at Petro well over 1 hour before my 11 and 14 expired because otherwise I knew I would have run out of hours.
     
  7. TallJoe

    TallJoe Road Train Member

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    However, I researched that and nowhere did I find anything other than you can't drive while fatigued or that the move could not extend HOS for the purpose of re-positioning the truck for the business advantage. I do realize, however, that the sole purpose of HOS is to limit the driving time per day and per 8 days. Yet, since it does not dictate any limits as to what time of a day or what radius, I took liberty to go home. They should have stated clearly that if you are X hours before your 10 or 14 (or perhaps even 70) but you already stopped for your break then you can use PC for personal use only but it should not exceed X - ie remaining hours before mandatory break.
     
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  8. JonJon78

    JonJon78 Road Train Member

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    Maybe @ZVar knows he seems to be pretty good with regulation.
     
  9. TallJoe

    TallJoe Road Train Member

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    They (people with common sense) keep telling that PC is for small staff e.i. going to a Motel, Cinema, Walmart....never do they say if there is any relation to the remaining or available hours of service while the PC is exercised. "Small staff" is 30 minutes drive home too. But as far as I am concerned 130 miles is small too. Yes!
    Case3. PC Home...what if I can't take the whole rig home? I rent a spot...not exactly terminal nor home either. Well...someone can tell me I did not go home...I went to a parking spot, which is my terminal. I'd say no...terminal is when the boss is and mechanics check out you truck. That's where you drop the trailer and turn in you paperwork. The spot is an extension of my home. I can't physically park the rig on my driveway. LOL
     
  10. ZVar

    ZVar Road Train Member

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    Ok, first off PC isn't defined outer than by guidance. As such, unless it specifically states so it's up to the LEO. That's why most people suggest small moves. Most LEO's will be fine with that,

    For your cases though...
    Case 1 would be fine as it's (almost) specifically allowed in the guidance.:
    Question 26: Under what circumstances may a driver operate a commercial motor vehicle (CMV) as a personal conveyance?
    2. Commuting between the driver’s terminal and his or her residence, between trailer-drop lots and the driver’s residence, and between work sites and his or her residence. In these scenarios, the commuting distance combined with the release from work and start to work times must allow the driver enough time to obtain the required restorative rest as to ensure the driver is not fatigued.

    While it doesn't state from a truck stop, well you just stopped to use the restroom. You were going from a work location (delivery) to home.

    Case 2 is on duty. No legal way around that.
    From 395
    On-duty time means all time from the time a driver begins to work or is required to be in readiness to work until the time the driver is relieved from work and all responsibility for performing work. On-duty time shall include:

    Doing paper work is work. It will be hard to convince LEO or a court otherwise.

    Case 3 is fairly black and white. It's specifically not allowed to happen as it's specified in the regulations. You might get away with convincing an LEO it's only to park and go home, but if they are following the letter of the regs you will not.

    Examples of Uses of a CMV that Would Not Qualify as Personal Conveyance
    7. Time spent traveling to a motor carrier’s terminal after loading or unloading from a shipper or a receiver.


    You can read most of that HOS regulations and guidance at FMCSA's website. Most of the info is under 395.2, 395.3 and 395.8
    Regulations Section
     
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  11. TallJoe

    TallJoe Road Train Member

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    I know it is all up to a state trooper who would stop me on I 294 Northbound and better not to test it. I will, however, treat PC as such e.i. strict personal use that is evidently separated from any operation gain. Also, I'll have to treat my truck parking location as my home location, not a terminal because if it is considered a terminal, I'd be at a permanent disadvantage. Besides, a real terminal move clearly puts a driver and his company into an operational gain. For instance, a company may encourage a driver to PC to their terminal in order to cross dock a trailer or perform mechanical work. That may be agianst what the driver wants to do on his Personal Conveyance. That's what I think was intend by FMCSA by prohibiting the move to terminal. I only gain access to my persona vehicle. Like I said, I dont want to test it anywhere but I'll stick to my line of reasoning if need be.
    Funny thing is we need a better definition of what a terminal is too.
     
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