DOT right to search without prob. cause?? - Page 9 - Truckers' Trucking Forum

roadkill439342 · **^ Top** #81 12.01.2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by AfterShock

I drove for a truckin' company that hauled sensitive, government, military loads that had government seals, and I was instructed to NEVER break those seals for ANYone for ANY reason, --- not even upon arrival at my destination, or all HaiL would break loose.
ONLY the receiver could break that seal after inspecting it for being tampered with.
NO one else, NO exceptions!

If that seal wasn't intact, I'd have a LOT of 'splainin' to do to the armed personel who would be demanding a GOOD explanation.
And I doubt that the devil made me do it would suffice.
I'd have been escorted to the brig.

So, are you sayin' that for me to refuse to follow those instructions would have subjected me to arrest for failure to comply?
And, if so, why is it not legal for an officer wanting to inspect the contents of my trailer to break that seal, and thereby relieving me of the responsibility? IF it would.
I didn't even have the authority to okay ANYone to break that seal.
Therefore, I CANNOT give permission.
It would have had to be under duress and AGAINST my wishes, --- totally OUT of my control.
And even then, I would have to answer to SOMEone for that broken seal. What would I tell them?
What are the chances they'd accept my explanation?
NO one and NEVER for ANY reason are pretty explicit instructions, and not too hard to understand.

If I break the seal myself, for ANY reason, I'm in BIG trouble.
And, if I don't break the seal, when ordered to do so by someone NOT authorized to do so, I'm in BIG trouble.
What would you suggest a driver do in that situation, considering that government seals cannot be broken and resealed, by ANYone, while in MY custody?
Penalties for doing so, or ALLOWING ANYone ELSE to do so, are quite severe.
Meanwhile, the officer of the law escapes punishment because he/she didn't have custody, and/or the right to do what they DEMAND that I do?
Or, would said officer accept ALL ramifications of their actions?
And KNOWING the ramifications of their actions, WOULD they be inclined to do so?
It COULD cost an officer their job and career.
What's wrong with this picture?
Danged if I do and danged if I don't?

And, what about those stainless steel cable seals which I had NO tool that COULD break them?
Would that constitute a refusal?

Man-0-Man ---- not even big bolt cutters will cut through those S/S cable seals. And if attempted, the seal would destroy the bolt cutter blade.
Only special cutters would break those seals.
And, I was informed that even possessing such a cutter would be considered being in possession of burglar tools.

If I'M NOT supposed to break those seals for ANY reason, what reason would I have to possess one of those tools in the first place?
Not to mention their high cost to purchase.

IF a Law Enforcement breaks the seal on your trailer, he (BY LAW) is required to SIGN (the shipping document, your log book or other document) that HE BROKE THE SEAL (with his NAME, AGENCY and Badge No.), he is also required to provide you with a NEW seal and note the NEW SEAL number on the same document.
IF he refuses YOU have the right to call HIS Superior and explain the situation.
Our Company ALSO hauls "sensitive" freight and we have been instructed to allow inspection ONLY AFTER calling the company (or the SHIPPER), giving our location, Agency involved and identifying information of the Officer(s).

shredfit1 · **^ Top** #82 12.07.2008

Very interesting thread...

I recall a friend hauling sensative cagro for the U.S. Postal service. He was told that if any seals were broken... he would be arrested immediately. He was NOT told what he was carrying.

With his luck, he was stopped and asked to open up by an LEO. He explained that he could not. Of course, that made the LEO want him to break the seals even more.

He called the Post Master of the destination city(Omaha if I recall) and He said NO! Under no circumstances open that truck. Again, the LEO wanted to see the cargo even more... The post master then told the LEO that they had to wait for him to get there with a U.S. Marshall, as both had to be present to break the seal...

Instead, the Post Master called his superior, which then, called the Governor of the state holding the Postal load(left out to protect the idiotic)...

The Governor called the officer and the trucker was on his way(all this in about 2 hours)... no inspection required... anymore?

Just what was this sensitive cargo? He still doesn't know... but suspects it was either vote tally machines or finished ballots... maybe both.

notarps4me · **^ Top** #83 12.07.2008

Some loads have chase cars. Military loads that are followed.

Native Dancer · **^ Top** #84 12.12.2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by psanderson

There is no document of which I could think that must be held that securely. What would it be? A drivers' license? Social Security card? Hazardous Materials Bills of lading? Check Book?

What, prey tell, would need to be in your vehicle that would be an absolute necessity to driving that vehicle that needed that much security?

Passport, TWIC card.

uhoh · **^ Top** #85 01.06.2010

Quote:

Originally Posted by psanderson

I don't believe anyone said that. You know, as I stated in a different post. I was #2 person in an undercover sting designed to see if state DOT officers knew their stuff. I had many documents in my truck (when I did in fact drive) that were 15 times more sensitive than anything you'll carry in a truck. And I didn't carry a safe in the tractor either.

Dude, you need to get over yourself. How in the world would you know what we carry? Upon a stop.. the LEO has a right to investigate as to the compliance of the drive. This means to see if the driver and equipment meet standards. Does not mean to go on a search and destroy mission. The LEO is allowed to climb into the truck and look for compliance.. example.. to see if the bunk meets the requirement to be able to log line 2. Once in the truck he can NOT legally open any draw, door, etc. That would be an illegal search.. He can look and see what is in plain sight, once a suspect item is seen, example empty beer can, he NOW has the right to search. The beer can gave hiw his proable cause. For you see there " Mr. Retired Fed" I too was in law enforcement for many years.. So before you blow smoke.. make sure whose skirt you are looking up.

AfterShock · **^ Top** #86 01.06.2010

Quote:

Originally Posted by uhoh

For you see there " Mr. Retired Fed" I too was in law enforcement for many years.. So before you blow smoke.. make sure whose skirt you are looking up.

Dude, you need to get over yourself.
If you're seein' smoke comin' from under your skirt,
it just might indicate there's a fire up under thar.
Because that's probably probable cause for Smokey
Bear to investigate the origin of said smoke blown, and
anything suspicious found could be considered evidence
against a driver emitting smoke, it'd be a good idea to
keep a charged fire extinguisher handy at all times.

I noticed you make mention that you too, were "in law enforcement for many years"......... so I don't doubt your smoke blowin' ability. But I wonder why anyone would quit smokin' a better payin' career with superior benefits to go Big truck truckin', --- a vocation generally considered to be attractive to low-brow types lacking the mental capacity to comprehend smoke signals blowin' in the wind.

shredfit1 · **^ Top** #87 01.07.2010

Quote:

Originally Posted by rex

Does the term "implied consent" ring a bell with anyone?
rx

Implied consent is a cleverly worded locution designed to tiptoe around someone's constitutional rights.

If a LEO askes to search, ask if your being detained or arrested... If so, politely say you would like to speak to your attorney. Say nothing more.

snake021 · **^ Top** #88 01.21.2010

Quote:

Originally Posted by psanderson

It can happen. But one must describe probable cause.

Probable cause can be speeding, a light not working on the vehicle, a flat tire, improper passing, weaving in the lane, tailgaiting, careless driving, or a logging violation as simple as not being current to the last change of duty status. Just about anything can legally constitute probable cause.

If you carried a safe, ANY enforcement officer can demand you to open it because of ANY probable cause from a federal perspective. In this instance a cop would/could reasonably assume the safe had something illegal in the safe and to that extent, and as a retired federal DOT official, I would agree with that decision wholeheartedly. You would be held until you open the safe, or arrested for failure to obey a legal order.

This is no different than a demand for you to remove a seal from the rear of the trailer. If you refuse you will be creating nothing but trouble for yourself because that officer has the right to demand you to remove it and see inside the trailer. The officer may not remove it legally because the seal is under the drivers' custody and control, but he/she can demand the seal to be removed.

49 CFR (the majority of the transportation rules but not all) give that officer that right. You must also consider that the 49 CFR (Code of Federal Regulations) is not all of which you must abide. You must also contend with 23 CFR, 17 CFR, 19 CFR, 15 CFR, 21 CFR, 27 CFR, and the USC (United States Code) which expressly prohibits refusing such actions by you from any federal enforcement officer.

In addition, and as a retired federal DOT official, actions such as you wish to do makes an officer more determined to search that much harder because of this potential deceptive practice. A safe in a truck, which has no reason to be in that truck, is a deceptive practice and therefore grounds for probable cause as well.

WTF!?

Instead of giving blanket "CFR" statements, why don't you give the exact regulation that says you(they) have the authority to search your personal belongings? Give the statute that a safe doesn't belong in a truck. You can't, because it isn't there. You don't even know the difference between PC and RS.

Powder Joints · **^ Top** #89 01.21.2010

I have had DOT break seal's, the officer signed the bill of laden for the seal change. Badge number and name for opening the trailer and also again for resealing the trailer.

As long as they sign for the seal why would you care. He has the gun and the ticket book why argue or a situation that really don't matter.

Brickman · **^ Top** #90 01.21.2010

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trooper One

Some of the above posts are the reasons why LEO's don't like truckers. 99% of the statements made are complete BS. I know for a fact that I come here to learn the truckers aspect of driving and lifestyle etc but hearing some of this makes me wanna stop more trucks, perhaps I should stay away and lurk. It gives me the impression that all truckers hate cops so why not treat all truckers that way! I'm a better man than that . A touch more reasonable to understand that all truckers are not the same.

There is implied consent to certain aspects of driving and holding a CDL. There are no legal aspects that allow me to open a locked safe unless there is probable cause to believe that the safe contains evidence of a crime which has already been established.

Many of the above statements regarding "planting" evidence is so old school it's not even funny. The idea of planting evidence is as old as driving a suspect to the middle of a field and giving them real justice w/o preceedings. STOP STEREOTYPING

Your Constitutional Rights do not change while in a CMV unless your company has designated certain regulations.

Actually the idea of a cop planting evidence is not far fetched. There are rogue POS cops the same as there are POS civilians.

Case in point, comes from my state I'm ashamed to say.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,576153,00.html

This scum bag cop was planning on committing 2 murders that night. For unknown reasons he didn't carry thru.

To think that the idea is far fetched and would never happen today is almost laughable.

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