With all the danger out there do you guys keep anything to protect yourselves?

And you are apparently attempting to explain gun law for a different state. I explained the law AS IT STANDS IN PA. If you don't live in PA, please explain the law in your state so we can see the differences.

JimRoy: again, that depends upon the "law of the land" in the state you are physically in at the time. In PA, the property only need ask once before it becomes a chargeable offense of criminal trespass.

 

Trespass laws are similar in all states.

The proprietor only has to ask once. At which point they can call the police. It then becomes a criminal trespass issue and no longer a carry rights issue.

I don't care if you want to carry or not. THAT is a personal decision.

What gives me a hoot with your conversation is the chest thumping that you two are doing.

"My personal protection is more important than anyone or anything else. I don't give a ####."

Seriously?

You fire that gun in combat, so long as it's down range, no one will likely give a #### who you hit. Even fratricide is given leeway. It's combat after all.

It's an entirely different ballgame here. You WILL be held accountable for that shot fired. Even if you shoot the bad guy and end the situation. Shoot the bad guy and the person standing behind them, you'll be held accountable for BOTH victims.

Walk into a restuarant and someone is there that doesn't like you carrying a gun. They'll likely complain and then you have a manager to deal with your actions. It happens.

None of us know HOW we would react in any given situation. It all depends on what happens. I have had situations where I have witnessed a man attack another. No contact was made between the two. But the attacker WAS body slammed before he was able to complete his attack. It was during an initiation and none of us knew it was a set-up. That defense of mine of another stopped the show entirely. In 20 years, it was the first time someone had actually stopped the attack.

Considering that initiation is done 2-3 times a YEAR with 10-15 people in it each time, that says a lot to me.

In 8 years as a permit to carry instructor, I have asked one person to leave my class. He bragged of "judged by 12", "I'll shoot anyone that looks like they'll harm any of my family." He made the entire class uncomfortable. And I asked him to leave.

It's your right. Big deal. It's everyone's right. Even a convicted felon to be able to defend themselves. Even the mentally ill. No person should be allowed to be a victim.

But there ARE more ways to defend yourself than with just a gun.

I won't carry a gun. I would loose my butt in a court of law. I stated it before. The judicial requirements for Ability, Jeopardy, Opportunity and Preclusion MUST be met to justify deadly force. Unlike law enforcement, as a common person, it's our obligation to do everything we can to prevent using deadly force.

What about "Size desparity?" Uh, even a woman can effectively defend against a man. IF she has seeked the correct training and opened her mind to what she IS capable of doing.

I take using a gun very seriously. Enough so, the one time I thought I was without a doubt going to Iraq, I bought 15,000 rounds of 9mm to train on my own and took as many combat handgun classes as I could. My life I thought depended on it and the army sure as heck wasn't giving me the training I needed.


But I also included classes NOT involving a gun as well.

I don't carry a gun because I can't see me getting around preclusion. There are too many OTHER things that any person can do to avoid using a gun in MOST situations.

The way you carry your keys. The way you present yourself. The locations you go to. Home break-in's occur. Won't deny that. But you have a better chance of getting struck by lightening.

"But you keep a fire extinguisher". Yop, and the box of salt is closer to me than that. And I teach my kids that it's just as quick to grab the baking soda or salt too. My oldest asked me, "Why not use flour?" We had a bonfire that night and she learned why.

Carry a gun if you want. I don't care.

But there ARE ramifications to your actions if you do. The chest thumpers on BOTH sides of the argument need to be put into a corner and told to stay there until they are willing to accept and give tolerance to BOTH sides of the consideration. Neither side is wrong. Just as neither side is right either.

It is afterall a PERSONAL choice to determine the level of comfort one needs to have for personal protection.

For me, it just scares me that some are so quick to say they'll use a gun. Not that they will stop the actions against them, but that they give no consideration to the danger it puts so many other in.

Namely, bullets miss, bullets penetrate and don't stop and others are innocent by-standers.
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/buickot3.htm


As to knowing gun laws for where you are at.
www.hangunlaw.us
http://smartgunlaws.org/

Those two websites provide the best collection as well as direct links BACK to the actual state laws as well. Research the laws there, confirm it with the original states.

 

My apologies to MNDriver, but that entire argument looks like it came right off some Anti-gun advocate manifesto.

Should I be aware of the possible consequences if I have to pull my gun? Absolutely! Just like a hunter in the woods needs to be aware of the possible consequences if pulling the trigger on that beautiful 8-point buck, and striking another hunter on the other side of it.

Should I be aware of my other options in any situation? Absolutely! In addition to my gun, I also carry at least one knife (preferably two) and have taken hand to hand self defense classes.

Should I be aware of the property owners rights as they may conflict with my right to carry a gun? Absolutely! A property owner has the right to ask me to remove my gun from their premises, and I have the duty and responsibility as a responsible gun owner to abide by his/her wishes.

There is no "chest thumping" going on here, except possibly in your mind. I have been simply explaining the law in my own state as it pertains to carrying a firearm.

If you are offended by my exercising my constitutionally protected right to carry a firearm, and from the tone of your posts you are...do not expect an apology from me. I do not offer an apology when I have done nothing wrong. Further, and I only offer this as a piece of information do what with it you will, but a customer in a restaurant in my own particular area complaining about a legally carried gun is more likely going to be asked to leave the premises permanently than the gun owner. Pennsylvania, outside of the horror that is Philadelphia, is an extremely pro-gun rights state.

If you are offended by my gun, tough. I'm offended by your apparent lack of spine.

 

If you only knew.....

I consider gun owner like you more of an issue to other gun owners than anti-gunners. You come on forums like this or other gun forums and brag about how you WILL use your gun to shoot anything that threatens you.

Yet you will NOT share with others that there are lots more things that go into justifying the use of deadly force for a common Joe.

I would rather see people make a more informed decision and THEN carry. If you see that as a "lack of spine", I pity you then.

 

Please, when have I said that I WILL use my gun? If you were to look into my posting history, you would find that I have long been an advocate of blades over guns.

The only time i have stated that I will use a gun over retreating is when I discussed a home invasion by an armed individual. Yes, in that situation, I will go to deadly force over retreating. My home is the only place in the world where I should have the right to feel absolutely secure.

Further, if you had read my previous post, I had posted:

My gun is another tool in my kit for self-defense. It is an option of last resort. Do not confuse my willingness to defend my life with lethal force when and if necessary with a desire to do so. In my most perfect world, I will carry my gun every day and NEVER pull it except at my range.

On the other hand, I also refuse to be victimized by savages, a stance that I have defended twice in conflicts with armed assailants. In neither situation did I have access to a gun, and those instances are ONE of the reasons I carry today. Because the second time it was only luck and my willingness to go to the lethal extreme that got me out of the situation (no, I didn't kill him. The wound I left was survivable if the savage got himself to medical attention in time).

You say that I do more damage than to the cause of protecting our rights than anti-gun advocates. I say you do so in your inability to actually stand for your own defense.

 

Why? because I say I don't NEED to carry a gun, even though I have the ability AND training to use one?

I can defend myself without one should it come to that.

 

As can I. But my preference is to carry my gun as an additional, last resort, option.

The tone of your posting language leads me to believe that you feel everyone should follow your example. I am providing a counter example from the perspective of one who does carry a gun.

Now, if you will excuse me. I do have unavoidable obligations I must attend to this afternoon. I will be available to rejoin the debate either later this afternoon, or early this evening. Enjoy your day, and have a safe and profitable trip. If you are running in the Great Lakes region, be aware that we are having a late winter cold snap, and there is the potential of icy roads in some areas.....Spring, unfortunately, is behaving like a Werner driver....always late!

 

I am getting a tooth pulled instead today. So no driving till tomorrow.