ISX 475 Air in Return Fuel Line

Discussion in 'Trucks [ Eighteen Wheelers ]' started by VisionLogistics, Nov 21, 2012.

  1. VisionLogistics

    VisionLogistics Road Train Member

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    Engine:

    2005 Cummins CM870 ISX (EGR)

    Symptoms:

    Runs rough
    Unstable Engine Speed (loping)
    Poor Fuel Economy (4.5 mpg)
    Poor Performance
    Knocking while under load at high RPM

    Diagnosis:

    After Cummins replaced the Exhaust Gas Pressure sensor, one timing actuator, and increased the idle speed, they sent the truck back to me and it wasn't fixed at all. Not one iota. So back for a second time this week, today they hooked up a sight glass to the fuel inlet and return lines on the IFSM. Going in there were a few bubbles, but not much. Going out there was A LOT OF AIR!!. Probably about 10 times as much air going out than going in. Cummins said 3 of the 6 injectors are failing and leaking air from the combustion chamber. They are recommending replacing all 6 at a cost of $5185.

    My question is this: Are there other places for air to be introduced into the return? I thought a little air was normal in the return line, and that the ISX fuel system provided a mechanism to bleed off air before the fuel is sent to the IFSM and injector. The fact that the return line has 10x more air out than coming in on the inlet suggests it's sucking air from somewhere in the head. Where besides the injector & cup could this air be coming from? Thanks! I go back on Friday to have the injectors done, but It'll be a dark day for me if they do the job and it doesn't fix the problem. Rocky Mountain Cummins in Denver is doing it.
     
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  3. Heavyd

    Heavyd Road Train Member

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    There are check valves inside each injector to prevent combustion gases from being blown back up into the injector through the nozzle holes. These do fail. I haven't seen compression leak up through the cup on the fuel side, but that could be possible. The fuel supply is the lowest level, then the return is in the middle passage in the head. I would think if compression gases are blowing up through here and getting into the fuel this way the oring would be toast and the engine wouldn't develop enough pressure to even start and fuel would leak onto the piston. Unless the head has a crack in it, I don't know any other way gases can get in the return. The injector check valves are your likely culprit. If it was anything else, you would be looking at a head, even more money! Testing can be done to pinpoint which injector is doing it, but it is time consuming. They must have done part of this test to give you the information they did. A few more steps could have given you a better picture as to what cylinder it is. It would be nice to replace all six and be done with it. Now you have all six new and all the same strength. Sucks when only put in one or two new injectors with the rest old and tired. Hard to keep a smooth, balanced running engine this way. Sucks even more when 2 months from now another old injector goes and you have to go in there again. But, I understand it is a lot of money up front too.
     
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  4. VisionLogistics

    VisionLogistics Road Train Member

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    What really sucks is that I just had it rebuilt 2 weeks ago and they said the old injectors were fine and no problems. Also put a new cam and one rocker in at the same time, as well as some other stuff. Would've been a lot cheaper to have them put new injectors in at that time.

    What about the drain-back valve in the IFSM? That could be a source of air in the return, too, yeah? I just don't want to condemn the injectors prematurely and and miss something else, especially after $5k. I think the tech did isolate each injector and determined 3 of them were leaking air past the o-rings, but I'm skeptical and am worried they are throwing parts at it again to hopefully solve the issue. :(
     
  5. country29

    country29 Medium Load Member

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    did it do this before it was rebuilt? I'm assuming you're talking in-frame. if it did not do it before the rebuild and they re-used the injectors, how were the injectors stored while out of the engine? if they were just laying on a table more than likely what happened was carbon dried and got lodged in the inj internally and they are not opening/closing all the way. I got in the habit years ago to put the inj in a bucket of fuel and thats where they stayed till I put them back in.
     
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  6. VisionLogistics

    VisionLogistics Road Train Member

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    It ran rough before the rebuild, yes, but wasn't knocking and got decent fuel economy. Cummins implied that the fleet pride freightliner shop that did the rebuild may have cut the o-rings accidentally during re-installation. We'll know more on Friday when Cummins digs into it and pulls the injectors.
     
  7. Narcis.M

    Narcis.M Light Load Member

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    A 100% pefect answer from A to Z to your problem ,i have the same problem , in my case i had to pay $ 5000 to Cummins in parts and shop time to finally have this answer from Tech's . Thank you Heavyd.
     
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  8. VisionLogistics

    VisionLogistics Road Train Member

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    So did you replace all 6 injectors and it solved the problem?
     
  9. Heavyd

    Heavyd Road Train Member

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    The anti drain back valve is basically your inlet check valve right after the electric primer pump. It is mounted between the primer pump and bottom of the IFSM. If your fuel system is sucking air from here, then the primer pump will also push out fuel here when it is running, (2 mins at key-on). From the sounds of the amount of air in the return line it would have to be sucking a lot of air. That would mean the primer pump area would leak out a lot of fuel too when it is running. You could replace it and the pump to ISFM gasket to make sure, but I think your problem is elsewhere.
     
  10. VisionLogistics

    VisionLogistics Road Train Member

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    Good point about the lift pump leaking there. Thanks.
     
  11. VisionLogistics

    VisionLogistics Road Train Member

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    What about that little brass screw-in bypass valve in the IFSM body on the back? I remember watching a cummins video on the ISX fuel system and they mentioned to check that if air in the return was present.
     
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