Paccar Engine(s)

So since this is a therad about Paccar MX motors, what does all of my ranting mean with respect to the Paccar MX?

Well what it means is that Politics and Corporate posturing really do trickle down to the end user.

I really believe that if CAT had not bailed on Paccar they would have taken their sweet A S S time to implement this MX motor and it would have gone a whole lot more smoothly.

Just look at the Engine fiasco at Navistar. It has hurt them terribly, so we know Paccar does not want its own fiasco, but they sure look to be having one.

All of this means that if you are in the market for a new truck right now, you better put away all of your "LOVE" for brand x y or z and pull out some brain tissue and make a decision that isn't just based on what truck your ol'daddy ran, or how bad you always wanted this or that cool looking super truck. You had better base it on the reality of what is going on today. Otherwise, hold your old iron for a while longer and see what happens.

Or yo can do what Cowpie1 did and just build a bad as s glider and be done with it!

 

Mercedes/Detroit engine work under warranty can be done at a Freightliner dealer OR a Detroit Dealer. Doesn't matter.

 

I am not arguing about the trend and what will bring the future. Even Cummins is getting ready to become a major engine component maker. They acknowledge that. But right now their class 8 market share is growing. In 2010 38.5%, in 2011 39.2%. And this is all without that stupid International, so from the next year, you can expect well above 40%. Almost every second truck will have Cummins engine! Not bad from a manufacturer, what you are just burying. And now, if you make the math. The Detroit Diesel market share was 22% in 2011 and about 40% of the Daimler trucks. So it means, almost half of their trucks was sold with Cummins!

 

Maybe someone can answer this question. What is the current up charge or premium to add a Cummins engine in a Freight, Volvo, or International vs the "in house" engines?

From past experience I can tell you that unless Cummins makes a relationship with a single OEM like International, they will continue to have their margins squeezed by the OEM's that will still continue to list their engines as options while at the same time competing with them head to head with their own "in house" engines. I don't understand why any manufacturer would want to be in a situation where their customers were also their chief competitors at the same time.

CAT got tired of playing the games with the OEM'S and bailed out. If you think CAT left simply because they couldn't handle the EPA technology required I think you are mistaken.

Looking forward you have to ask yourself just how in the world Cummins is going to keep up with the in house integration of engine and auto transmissions.

Volvo only makes their I shift product available with their motors.

Cummins had a good run right after CAT bailed, but what happens next? The truck OEM's have already started to push their own engines relegating Cummins to 2nd place status. You can look at the% of engines they have been selling lately, but it is clear that they will continue to be pushed out in favor of the "in house" engines now that everybody has one. International HAD one and now they are looking to Cummins to save them. How will that play out with the other Class 8 makers? Time will tell.

When it comes to Paccar...I guess if you fall for the sales hype about the MX then you deserve what you get. In my mind the EURO engines will never replace the engines like Cummins and CAT. If Cummins can continue to be everybody's supplier and competitor at the same time, well maybe they will remain the alternate choice for each OEM, but I don't think this situation is going to last much longer.

We all blinked and CAT is gone. Somebody else is going to blink and Cummins will be gone next unless they come up with their own long term strategy, and I am betting it will be with Navistar.

 

As I am for shopping my next truck, I can tell you, basically no price difference between Cummins and the in house engine prices. At Volvo there are 1000.00$, at the rest there is no extra. They just try to push their own engine, push their dealers to stock their trucks with own engine. I think Cummins engine has future as long as the in house engines are suffering, and the lack of bigger replacement engines, what are doing better in the line haul application with the emission stuff put on. I have talked to Detroit engineers and they said their DD15 on highway with gross 80.000lbs doing better and last longer than the DD13. Also this is Schneider experience too. Also I do not think too, CAT would not be able to do an EPA 2010 engine, although their ACER technology was a trouble some. The main difference, for CAT the class 8 engine was just minor part of their portfolio between the heavy machinery, for Cummins a major one, since they are solely engine manufacturers. And for now, with their market share I do not think they are in rush to change anything. Why do you think they would take part in International? I think more natural choice would be Paccar. We will see, but I strongly doubt it will happen before the next decade or so.

 

yes aft.ertreatment sys

 

I am thinking in the next 2 years. You think in the next 10. If we split the difference and it looks like 6 years.

Why International/Navistar partnership? Because to me it looks like Cummins is making a commitment to save International. that tells me they will eventually get married. You think the courtship will be a long one. I think much sooner and they will tie the knot. When you are selling to your competitors and your future is in the hands of competitors, you can never be sure when they will finally decide to go on their own.

the Class 8 manufacturers would survive if Cummins closed business tomorrow. Could Cummins survive if they loose Freightliner completely? I am not so sure. To loose Freightliner or Volvo or Paccar or any combination of them would push Cummins to the edge of bankruptcy in my opinion.

I think Cummins must be very careful now that Paccar is bringing their own motor. Cummins is the odd OEM out at this point. A merger of Cummins and Navistar would instantly produce a new Class 8 OEM with 80% perfect truck and 90% perfect engine. Who else could offer this? If they could improve from that point it could help Navistar make a HUGE comeback. Plus they could also leverage the fact that they would be a 100% MADE IN USA company thru and thru....think about it! Cummins is a Class 8 OEM WITHOUT a truck. Navistar is a Class 8 OEM WITHOUT an engine right now!! IT only makes sense.

The DD15 and the Cummins ISX 15 liter are only real options in my mind right now. Volvo has a good 13 Liter motor. THe Cummins ISX 15 liter option makes it possible to get a good truck with a d#amn good engine. That's a good compromise in my book. If Volvo would come up with comparable DD15 clone engine...well then that would change things. Stick with a 15 Liter and you will be in good shape.

 

I think Cummins saved International because it is a business. They did not play the hurt lovers role. Also to show the market what happens if someone fire them. By the way, I have heard James Hebe almost bankrupted Freightliner too in the '90. You made your points for the merger, but for now, I think Navistar would think about survive only, I do not think they would do any bold step in the near future. Of course, they would be happy to "own" Cummins, but I do not think it would make sense for Cummins right now take part from Navistar 18% market share. By the way, they had 28% when they fired Cummins, and Cummins is just doing fine, and International almost bankrupted. But look what Paccar doing. Have you realized their new automated transmission? It is a Paccar brand. And with smaller letter by Eaton. I can imagine a Paccar 15 liter engine made by Cummins. We will see.
The 100% North American sounds good, but I think more and more people swallow the idea of globalization. I just delivered a load of Chinese rims for Ford. You do not really know what is made where anymore. Navistar own German MAN too. Volkwagen is considering to buy Navistar. What nationality is Paccar?
I am Canadian, made in Hungary and want to buy an American truck. So, where are we now?

 

Cosmic47,in what way is the Cummins aftertreatment different to the MX aftertreatment?

 

Oram,Volkswagen AG owns 53,71% off stock and has 55,9% off votingrights in MAN.
They control MAN.

You are right,there are rumours that Volkswagen wants to buy Navistar but nobody knows haw that story will end.
It would be interesthing if they did as that would make a new global player as you would end up with a truckbuilder which would have MAN,Volkswagen(truckbuilder in Brazil),Scania and Navistar/International under the same roof.

People forget or don't know that Cummins doesn't just make money from making engines.
They also develop them.
Several Scania engines are in fact Cummins designed but sold without a trace off the Cummins name on them.
They also sell several lighter diesels to a lot off brands.
And to bring it back to the MX,Daf and Cummins have a very long relationship in developing engines together.
So how much Cummins helped in the design off the MX,i don't know.
Doubt if either Paccar or Cummins will tell us.