Leasing at Prime

Discussion in 'Prime' started by ironpony, Jun 25, 2012.

  1. ironpony

    ironpony Road Train Member

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    It's not a motivator... cash in the bank is what keeps your business running.
     
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  3. Pouring Coal

    Pouring Coal Light Load Member

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    #### man I thought I was doing good saving up $8 grand lol. Nice, and good luck, ill be following you in the next couple months.

    So I finally have a list of questions I want to run by you all, and any input is greatly appreciated!

    Business tracking software/excel spreadsheets - Ive been looking at the diesel boss software, and while I really like how it looks and is laid out, ( it sure is pretty lol) I feel its lacking some key pieces of info, that being all the breakdowns in pay and charges a lease op or owner op deals with on a daily basis. maybe im missing something, is there a place to input things like escrow/maint/tire/emergency funds, detention pay, insurance, plates, and any of the 20 other key bits of info we all need to see to properly track how we're doing? not sure about you guys, but the last 2 business I ran, I wanted to know exactly where and how ever penny was spent and earned. and IP, can I join the growing list and get a peak at your current setup, silent eagle, you as well? i'll be honest, im trying to mimic how you guys run your operations to a point. and I thank you both for being so open with all of us, its been a huge help to this point, and I hope you guys don't mind me bugging you in the future lol.

    On ifta, im still trying to figure out how to maximize its potential. Do you want to buy in at the cheapest base price with the highest tax, or do you always want to aim for the cheapest base with the lowest tax? I'm using an avg fuel econ of between 7.7-8.5 mpg when im calculating all my numbers if this in any way helps.

    On fuel mileage, this is a two part question. what are some tips and tricks you guys are using. im learning and setting my habits now, so I want to make sure im setting the right ones. ive been able to pull as much as 8.9mpg out of my trainers truck, given that was flat ground in Arkansas, however my trip avg from Arkansas to outside modesto California was 8.13 or so and ive been increasing the avg every day, I think now its up to 8.3 or so. and that's with a trainer who wants to run everywhere on the pin lol.
    Flat ground is fairly obvious, keep your boost and your speed low. Hills, not so much lol, ive been able to pull 4-5 mpg on the rolling hills and mid grade stuff if I baby it, meaning 30-40mph in 8th or 9th, trying to keep it around 11-1300 on the rpms. mountains, well, I don't see much of an option aside from throttle it up and try and back off when you can. I also have been using momentum as much as possible.
    2nd part of this question, what if any thing as far as additives and oil are you guys using to get a leg up on fuel milage? anyone had good luck with synthetics? also, about mechanical modifications? FASS system etc? And wind tabs, whats the deal on them? ######## or no?

    i'm wishing I could have found a lease op to run through my training with, but watching my trainer im picking up on plenty of things not to do. but according to him, im talking to the wrong people about leasing, need to talk to all the guys that failed or failing, why you want to talk to someone who is sucsessfull..... yea, about that. lol.

    Ive go a lot of questions still, and ill try and be gentle and not write out too many more novels lol, but I really appreaciate all of your input thus far.
     
  4. ironpony

    ironpony Road Train Member

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    I'm going to say this only with the best of intentions. EVERYBODY gets in a truck and thinks that this is so easy even a caveman can be a millionaire tomorrow. That's not the case. There is so much more to this than just running down the road... a fer instance is the HOS regs... unless you are an expert at how they work you're going to have trouble with them, and especially with elogs enforcing how they are applied to the letter. There is only one way to do this, and that is EXPERIENCE. It's hard enough to do this on the company side, let alone with the millstone of a truck lease tied around your neck. 4 out of 5 will fail to complete their first lease, most of them in the first year. This is primarily due to a lack of funds, AND A MAJOR LACK OF EXPERIENCE IN TRUCKING. You guys should plan on running a minimum of 2 years on the company side to gain the experience in trucking that is the prerequisite to being a successful lease operator!!!

    I haven't looked at that stuff in a long time, but I doubt that it gets to that level of detail, especially as it applies directly to a Prime lease. When you go to lease orientation, one of the things they'll ask you is do you want to pay for the "basic accounting service" that runs $21.75 per week. It's invaluable, and answers most of those questions with some basic breakdown of what you're asking about. I don't know about you, but I feel that is money well spent. Most lease ops never bother with this, let alone looking at their settlements on a weekly basis... that's another huge problem.

    I'm really hesitant to turn that stuff loose for the simple reason that you have to be proficient in how a spreadsheet works in order to use it. If you don't know how to do that, "Excel (insert version year) for Dummies" is a good place to start... and a copy of Microsoft Office. My spreadsheet has been tailored to the way I operate, and I am changing it once again to match my needs as an owner-operator leased to Prime, and using Abacus CPAs as my tax preparer. That's different than a lease-operator. Plus... and this is huge, it's done in the Open Software Organization Apache Version 3 spreadsheet software... I'm not using Excel. If you are proficient in MS Excel, the jump to OSO Apache is a minor inconvenience.

    Really, what you want is something that answers the operational questions about your business that the Basic Accounting service doesn't. You want it as simple as possible, with as little data entry as you can get away with. I played with this for a couple of years while I ran on the company-side, and the least amount of effort that you can expend on this is where you want to be. It should follow the format of your settlement so that data entry is quick and straight-forward.

    I break out the numbers to determine my fuel cost per mile (the way it's explained in the ACE-II business class,) keeping track of my maintenance cost per mile for both items charged to the settlement and out-of-pocket costs, keeping an eye on changes to my fixed costs, and tracking cash flow into the business both in terms of dollars and expressed as the operating ratio. Everything else outside of that is pretty much extra stuff, but it does force me to LOOK at my settlements every week.

    Not at all... that's why I started this thread. I wish more potential Prime lease-ops would get involved like that so we can get you through that all-important first year.

    A word on fuel economy. When I started this little journey, the experienced lease ops were telling us that getting over 7mpg was essential. Well, it was THEN. On my first lease, with fixed costs running around $1100 per week, it was quite obvious that getting up around 8mpg was essential to having a reasonable cash flow. Well guess what? When I finished my first lease, Prime was proud to offer me a 2013 Cascadia for $1300 per week, and we're not talking about a PeterPacker or a Kenworthless... they're more. You guys are going to have to scratch for every 10th of a mpg you can get in order to make this work, and it's only going to get worse as the government packs more efficiency requirements onto heavy truck manufacturers in the future.

    You're going to pay the IFTA tax you owe... and it doesn't matter how much you pay for tax at the pump. If you don't pay enough, Prime will be pleased to hit you with an IFTA charge to cover it. If you overpay, you'll be getting a refund. You pay what you pay. So the ONLY strategy for buying fuel is to subtract the state per-gallon fuel tax from the pump price after our corporate discount, and buy as much of the cheapest base-price fuel that you can find in-route. It doesn't pay to drive even 10 miles to save a few pennies per gallon.

    And especially IGNORE anyone who tells you NOT TO BUY FUEL JUST BEFORE TUESDAY CUTOFF! That will cost you a few thousand over the life of your lease. There is only one reason that even Prime tells you to do this: The biggest complaint about leasing is no money in the settlement. The easiest way for a carrier to fix this is to tell a struggling lease op to NOT BUY FUEL. It'll artificially inflate your settlement check by $300 to $500... but you'll still need that fuel on Wednesday. And most likely you'll pay more for it.

    Hills... get off the cruise control, and run them on the pedal. Lead a little because it takes a few seconds for the turbo to spin-up, and limit how much turbo boost you use. Let off as you approach the crest, allow your momentum to carry you over. On a long down-hill stretch, allow gravity to bring you back up to speed. On shorter stretches, just use a little power to regain your speed.

    Steeper grades. Downshift early, and don't try to force the issue. Delaying downshifting by pouring fuel into the engine will just use more fuel than you would otherwise. Establish a climb that doesn't have you pushing the throttle to the floor, and limit the amount of boost you're using. Don't worry if you have some more RPM than what Prime tells you is enough... its going to decay on a steep climb, unless you happen to have the engine's torque production at the point you need for the given load and grade. If you have a steep downgrade before going up, let gravity help you some... but don't be exceeding the speed limit, or Prime's max speed for your truck. For gawd's sake... stay in gear!!!

    So how do you know if you're getting anywhere? Start a fuel log. Get a spiral notebook- don't use your computer for this, a pen and a ruler. Divide it up into columns... I used trip number, location, leg fuel used, leg distance, leg fuel economy, trip fuel used, trip distance, trip fuel economy, and the all important note column. Divide your trip up into "legs" that have some logical breakdown... writing it down at pee-breaks, fuel stops, end-of-day are good choices. You might want to do a leg for steep climbs in a trip. Write down the fuel used and distance... USE A CALCULATOR TO FIGURE YOUR FUEL ECONOMY. Add up all the leg fuel quantities, and leg distance travelled... and figure your over-all fuel economy for that trip. Now you have a record of what you did, and you can look back to see if you really are getting better or worse... as a way of developing your technique. A given rule of industry thumb is that in the same truck on the same load, drivers can easily vary as much as 30% in fuel economy. Get religious about keeping this up.

    Now you have a way to evaluate changes in your technique. Only change one driving habit at a time, give it a couple of weeks to see if it really works. Keep what works, ditch what doesn't work. Get inquisitive about anything that can be different one load to the next.

    Just antigel in the winter. Everything else is pretty much snake oil. If it really made any difference to use a fuel or oil additive, the energy companies would already have incorporated snake oil in their formulations. You'll note stuff like Motorkote depends on some guy telling you how much better he did, not real SAE testing. Hand me a million bucks, and I'll tell you pouring my dog's piss in the fuel tank will get you a zillion miles per gallon too.

    It will get you a 2% improvement in fuel economy which is hard to measure... fuel company testing. That makes sense because the engine isn't working as hard to move the oil around because it is thinner. It's also more expensive, and Prime won't cover your PMs using synthetic. You have to pay for them no matter what as a lease op, but you won't be charging it to your settlement. The real advantage comes with using it for extended drain intervals coupled with oil analysis, but again as a lease op you can't do that. You're contractually held to getting your PMs at the interval established for your engine.

    Airtabs are an offshoot of NASA technology, and there has been enough R&D testing (including wind tunnel work) to show the potential for a 2% improvement in fuel economy. I'd say it's real. They are supposed to help stabilize your truck in the wind, and cut down on spray in rain. You might get away with putting them on, but understand Prime has every right contractually to charge you for taking them off at your expense at the end of the lease. The same goes with a FASS.

    FASS conditions the fuel, filtering out more of the impurities, but understand on the DD15 that Prime buys, you have that to an extent in the base system. Where FASS excels is removing air from the fuel... and you'll have a lot of dissolved air in the fuel towards the end of a day. It might help in the 3% to 5% range in fuel economy. You are contractually prevented from putting something on your truck like this, Aircel (magic tubes in the compressed air flow), or a bypass oil filter.

    Well, don't just listen to me! Find as many SUCCESSFUL lease ops as you can, and throw question at them... find out what they do that makes them successful. Here's a tip... Prime has a driver rating system in the dispatch software. It takes into account your CSA score, accidents, on-time rate, and other things. The higher it is, the better access you have as a lease op to better-paying freight. It takes time to build that up, and the confidence that a lease FM has in your abilities. So answer this... two new lease ops, one fresh out of training with only a few months experience, the other with a few years under his belt as a company driver with a track record of on-time, no tickets, no accidents. Who gets the better paying (and more customer-sensitive) freight???

    Ask away! That's what the thread is for, and we all learn something from it.

    Next time you're at the terminal, drop by the leasing office, and ask them for a sample copy of the lease. Also ask them for the per-week costs for a Cascadia, a Pete, and a Kenworth. Understand that a first-time lease op needs every financial advantage they can get, and piling even a few hundred extra per week on that payment for a fancy truck is stupid.
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2014
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  5. JimmyBones

    JimmyBones Heavy Load Member

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    I personally prefer OpenOffice Calc. You can write a pretty comprehensive system in an hour or two on Calc.
     
  6. Pouring Coal

    Pouring Coal Light Load Member

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    so the lease contract specifically forbids us from making mechanical changes to the truck? well ####, so much for that idea. now, you said we'd be footing the bill on the pm's, we are allowed to do our own work as long as we can produce receipts for the needed parts and materials correct? ive already got a shop, and being able to utilize it for more then storage will be nice as a tax write off as well.

    I'll be looking to squeeze every last mpg out of my truck, within reason while still maintain a decent pace. I did figure conservatively on my numbers, my actual goal is going to be around 8.5 - 8.75 on the mpg, and I think that's fairly obtainable in a 14 Cascadia, given the right driving style.

    Couple more questions. the guarantee we have, my trainer is trying to tell me that anything you make over $1.02 a mile is used to offset those the times where they may actually have to pay up your settlement, I told him he was full of ####, but just to clarify, its only there when you need it with no adverse effect on you when you don't correct?

    Rider policy. What is the lease op rider/passenger policy. i'd like to be able to take my boys on the road some when their school is off or during the summers. what are the costs and limitations.

    Now to speak in some specifics. my goal is to complete the 3 year, and turn around and purchase/ lease back on as an owner op, as I understand it, as long as the truck is leased on, the age does not matter, within reason of course, and as long as it continues to be kept up and passes its inspections.

    My plan is basically to be getting a 10-12 year service life out of my truck. does this sound feasible? I understand to do this i'll have to be looking at leasing a brand new truck, which I did not want to do originally, but paying a bit more up front seems like it will leave me some time on the back side of the trucks life to see the benefits of this plan. In general what im planning is on years 1-3 building the business and setting up to buy the truck, paying myself 10-17% of gross or roughly 40- 50% of profit. year 4 will be setting any increased profits back due to lower payments into the business fund and around a 5% bump in driver pay if corporate will allow it lol. year 5 will be finishing paying off the truck and a possible final 5% bump in driver pay putting me at around 45-60% of profit depending on many factors. years 7 and 8 are going hopefully continue to build operating capital, with the goal by the end of year 8 to be having built an operating capital of around $75,000, after paying for the truck. years 9+ will be used to build my retirement even more then what I have been, while adding roughly 10% a year to the operating fund. my walk away point is going to be 20% of that $75,000. Ive left a lot of room for maintence and am planning on around the 5th or 6th year to be looking at an overhaul. thoughts on this? what would you guys change?
     
  7. ironpony

    ironpony Road Train Member

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    That's the spreadsheet app in Apache...
     
  8. Pouring Coal

    Pouring Coal Light Load Member

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    Ive been around logs and hrs of service in one way or another for quite some time, elogs and paper. I know how to run against the clock, and several tricks to get more time, elogs included lol. one thing im going to miss is off duty well site, lol that #### was great!take into account ive been around trucking on both sides of the business for a better part of a decade, grew up on it and I have a solid background in heavy equipment and heavy truck repair. hell, im still a nhtsa certified air systems inspector lol. I used my time in the oilfield to set me up for this, bills paid down to a very manageable monthly level, and savings both personal and for the business. and I still have income coming in from my last business lol.

    That all said, I absolutely do not know everything needed for this to succeed, hence why im here and picking your brains. while running company for a bit would show me primes way and expectations, everything ive seen so far of the way we operate is fairly straight forward. if im missing something, let me know, i mean honestly, if its necessary, I don't have an issue putting in some time on the company side. but, I came here to lease, and I think im set up fairly well to succeed at it.
     
  9. ironpony

    ironpony Road Train Member

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    Yep, that should work. You'll just need to work with your RA person on that.

    Your trainer is completely wrong. The $1.02 per mile figure for linehaul only works as a weekly guarantee, and averaged over every 100,000-mile period. If you drop below that week-to-week, they advance you enough to make that up, but it is only a "loan" that comes out when you go positive over that. They also check at 100,000-mile intervals that your linehaul revenue is above the minimum... if it isn't you get enough to raise you to that level. That's the "guarantee," but it's really a revenue floor meant to keep you whole in a bad economy. Now, what you do make is 72% of linehaul, FSC (split the same way, but only on amounts over the weekly FSC number) and accessorials... and you get all of that money. For example, if you have a 1000-mile trip, and the revenue from all sources for that trip is $2500 or $2.50 per mile... you get all of that in the settlement that you turn the trip in on.

    You have to sign a release as their guardian for each trip, and rider insurance which is a couple of bucks per week is tacked onto your fixed expenses. I believe they have to be over 11, but I could be wrong there.

    The buyout price on a lease is specified in your contract by month. If you choose to use Prime as your lender, it's a $13,000 down payment discounted by $1,000 for every year of service, and the tractor cannot have more than 450,000 miles on it for that particular option.

    Sounds well thought-through. Service life on the tractor is always a guess, but having enough set back for an in-frame by 1,000,000-miles ought to be OK. You'll need a fairly substantial maintenance fund for after the 3-year lease in any case. That's assuming a DD15 makes it that far... we just don't know yet. Evidently the ISX engine has a good chance of needing an in-frame by the 800,000-mile point. Plan on paying off the truck (if you need financing) on a two-year note.
     
  10. JimmyBones

    JimmyBones Heavy Load Member

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    All the numbers I've seen on my truck, averaged against three lease trucks, show an average of about $1.65 per mile gross over the course of the year.

    I don't know anybody who has been relegated to the guarantee.
     
  11. Pouring Coal

    Pouring Coal Light Load Member

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    My trainer is a company guy who knows evertything lol, good trainer, everything else not so much.
     
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