Driving time / time worked v. safety

First, your are referring to danc694u as an idiot as he is the one who wrote Point #1. What's your comment about name calling? You're welcome.

Second, I was referring to the above statement in general as idiocy because it failed to understand, comprehend and address what MY point was. Evidently I am having a failure to communicate that here so I will not beat this to death.

Due to this failure to communicate I will state what another very seasoned driver stated so eloquently in another thread... that is:
1) things for drivers are NOT better than 20 years ago, when pay was higher, miles were more, and there was a good living to be had as an owner operator or small company.
2) the industry is controlled by the driver mills and insurance companies
3) the industry now is such that most new drivers MUST work for a driver mill to begin...
4) driver mills operate to run these new drivers 6 months to a year, no more... because it cuts in to their profits... and force out drivers who try and stay longer with fewer miles...
5) thus the result of drivers always on the hunt for a better job. This is an industry that operates on and breeds distrust nowadays.

The industry is much different and the "paying your dues" is much different than before. New drivers (not I) expect to make much more than they do initially because they are TOLD this by the companies and recruiters who have lied to them. They have not been told different by anyone else, so why would they think differently?

NealinNevada, I do not resort to name calling to discredit anyone. I attempt to explain and make a point, with sarcasm or humor that sometimes may come across wrong, but there is no need on my part for name calling. If that is what you or others felt, my apologies. I believe in the adage "give respect, get respect". Completely.

And for danc694u, congratulations on a very successful life. I too have degrees, BS in Liberal Arts with 3 majors and a Law Degree. I have started, owned and operated 5 businesses over 25 years. I have also driven OTR, dumps, various construction trucks, and heavy equipment. I enjoy driving, and know I will not become wealthy. I have never had that as a goal. My goal has been to enjoy my life.

It just pisses me off when I see people getting screwed... which is all too common in this industry. And it bothers me when I see others who don't have... enough feeling of self worth (how's that for being nice?) to stand up for themselves. I do something because I want to do it and if there is something there I don't like, like someone trying to screw me, take advantage of me, BS me... then I will say something, at the very least.

I don't believe being some trucking company's bi*** and then telling others how they need to pay their dues makes one a man, or a trucker. Yes, trucking is a lifestyle and can be a great one... but there is also way too much BS in this industry today and way too few willing to stand up and say so. Too many complain about the wheel holders v. the professional drivers, and yet these same drivers support the very system that puts these wheel holders on the road and eliminates good paying jobs for experienced drivers. Go figure...

Drivers deserve and should demand good treatment and good pay. They instead support the very system that screws so many coming into the industry. I can't be any planer than that... if you don't get it... you don't get it. It's your right to disagree and I support that entirely. Drive safe y'all. And watch out for bikers...

 

you are correct, and I'm not arguing that point. What I AM pointing out is that if a truck is involved in an accident, you typically won't have more than or or two fatalities... and that's only as a possibility. If an aircraft is involved in an accident, you WILL have fatalities, and you'll have (probably) hundreds.

Morally, no difference. Financially, HUGE difference.



As has been pointed out by others - there is not the huge demand for pilots as there is for drivers. Provide the demand for 100,000 pilots a year and you can bet your skivvies there will be mills. Regardless of their organization. They'd be working for a heck of a lot less than they do now, and quite possibly be putting in some free time...



Good -we've each run businesses and understand. However, I *never* said it was "best". I merely pointed out that in an employer's market, such tactics will work, and continue to do so.

Swift wasn't always the largest trucking company in the country. And they didn't get to be as large as they are now by paying top dollar.

I don't know much about the union companies,but a quick knee-jerk response is to suggest that most of the really successful ones are niche players- they are not true 'common carriers'.



No, training (such as it is) is included. It doesn't cost much to put a vict... er. trainee in with a trainer for a few weeks- and you'll see significantly more profit from him after those few weeks than you do from your multi-year experienced drivers.

And,as I pointed out above, Swift didn't spring fully formed from the brow of Zeus. Once upon a time they where an itty-bitty company too. They stayed that way UNTIL they adopted their current business plan.

So, it may be downhill for the employees(who don't stay long enough to force a change), but the company is prospering like a big dog.

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See above.



regulation is not the answer. All regulation does is create loopholes and gaps for the legal staff to work through.

What needs to be done is better education. I don't mean Reading, Riting, and 'Rithmatic. I mean "looking for a job 101". The average high school / college student (and graduate) does absolutely zero research when it comes to job hunting.

Well, ok.. zero is a little extreme... they'll look into how much it pays, what perks it might offer, and MAYBE whether they'll have to move. But research into the company, company policies, etc? Ha! For some reason, they assume they've left all the back-biting, crotch-kneeing, generally dishonest folk behind when they left school.

And Schools ENCOURAGE this. How many students blindly follow what the counselors suggest they take as a curriculum?

So. no.. make "Seeking Employment 101" a required course of study instead of trying to regulate things.

Look at it this way: regulation = Government intervention. When was the last time the government interfered with your life and made you happy in the doing?



Absolutely. I hope you aren't including Danc694u in that group,though. I think (putting words in his mouth - this is just my take on him) what he's getting at is that so many newbies come into the industry )as they do in most other industries( expecting to make top dollar from the outset.

And,of course,as he points out - it aint so. To make top dollar,you gotta pay your dues. Today,this means working under current conditions (or conditions as they change) to EARN top dollar.

Mentioning how things are not the same as they were 20 years ago is.. a digression.



The boards are not the end-all/be-all of research tools. Yes, for those of us with access,they're a godsend.

I think part of what Danc694u- and certainly part of what I'm getting at- is that anybody who trusts anybody with a vested interest in your actions is stupid.

Ok- to strong a word. Ignorant. They don't know any better.



Correct - this is just ONE of the options. I didn't base my decision on what I read here. I based it on what I read here, and in a half dozen other boards,and reading trucker magazines, and in talking to a bunch of drivers...

Relying on this forum (as nice as it is) is just as silly as relying on the recruiter.



by tools,I really mean 'ability to do research'.

I understand where you are coming from re: the issues. You have the presence of mind to poke into the dark corners and ask questions. Why? probably in large part because you spent time on the other side of the desk and KNOW that the employer isn't always volunteering information to the prospective employee.

I could suggest that the first step in fixing a problem is becoming aware of it in the first place...

But, I'm going to step back up a couple paragraphs... this issue is not specific to the trucking industry. It's prevalent in our culture- this assumption that the authority figure (teacher, cop, priest, recruiter) has your best interests at heart and would - therefore - never lie to you.

Back in the 60s they had a slogan "Question Authority". It seems fitting now- even though the idea behind it is a bit different from what it was then.

It's going to be a long uphill slog through 20 feet of semi-frozen mud, though, when you consider that one of the most common phrases uttered by parents and teachers in this country is "Because I say so"
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Good dialog... I don't agree with everything, but then everyone has opinions and nobody has all the right answers. I do agree with some of your points and hope you and others at least understand mine. Our main point of contention, and you can see that among other drives on here as well, is regulation v. deregulation. I believe regulation is a natural, a necessity of our times, for many reasons.

I've learned alot from drivers on here, as well as just talking to people. Many don't do that, you are correct... they just jump in... especially the young ones.

I have discovered that there are quite a few jobs on CraigsList, more so than anywhere else I have looked. I have one offer today from a company in SC driving a straight truck... not what I want though. Hoping to have an offer this week, have been told my chances are excellent, driving OTR for a small private company who don't mind that I have not driven in 4 years. Charactor and smarts are more important they said. I got the idea of checking smaller private companies from others on here looking to stay away from the driver mills, and they were successful. I am learning there are some good jobs out there, especially if you have a couple years experience, but even with no recent experience there are still some... ya just gotta search and get lucky. Hopefully I got lucky. We'll see.

Take care...

 

Good dialog... I don't agree with everything, but then everyone has opinions and nobody has all the right answers. I do agree with some of your points and hope you and others at least understand mine. Our main point of contention, and you can see that among other drives on here as well, is regulation v. deregulation. I believe regulation is a natural, a necessity of our times, for many reasons.

I've learned alot from drivers on here, as well as just talking to people. Many don't do that, you are correct... they just jump in... especially the young ones.

I have discovered that there are quite a few jobs on CraigsList, more so than anywhere else I have looked. I have one offer today from a company in SC driving a straight truck... not what I want though. Hoping to have an offer this week, have been told my chances are excellent, driving OTR for a small private company who don't mind that I have not driven in 4 years. Charactor and smarts are more important they said. I got the idea of checking smaller private companies from others on here looking to stay away from the driver mills, and they were successful. I am learning there are some good jobs out there, especially if you have a couple years experience, but even with no recent experience there are still some... ya just gotta search and get lucky. Hopefully I got lucky. We'll see.

Take care...

you are correct, and I'm not arguing that point. What I AM pointing out is that if a truck is involved in an accident, you typically won't have more than or or two fatalities... and that's only as a possibility. If an aircraft is involved in an accident, you WILL have fatalities, and you'll have (probably) hundreds.

Morally, no difference. Financially, HUGE difference.



As has been pointed out by others - there is not the huge demand for pilots as there is for drivers. Provide the demand for 100,000 pilots a year and you can bet your skivvies there will be mills. Regardless of their organization. They'd be working for a heck of a lot less than they do now, and quite possibly be putting in some free time...



Good -we've each run businesses and understand. However, I *never* said it was "best". I merely pointed out that in an employer's market, such tactics will work, and continue to do so.

Swift wasn't always the largest trucking company in the country. And they didn't get to be as large as they are now by paying top dollar.

I don't know much about the union companies,but a quick knee-jerk response is to suggest that most of the really successful ones are niche players- they are not true 'common carriers'.



No, training (such as it is) is included. It doesn't cost much to put a vict... er. trainee in with a trainer for a few weeks- and you'll see significantly more profit from him after those few weeks than you do from your multi-year experienced drivers.

And,as I pointed out above, Swift didn't spring fully formed from the brow of Zeus. Once upon a time they where an itty-bitty company too. They stayed that way UNTIL they adopted their current business plan.

So, it may be downhill for the employees(who don't stay long enough to force a change), but the company is prospering like a big dog.

[/color]

See above.



regulation is not the answer. All regulation does is create loopholes and gaps for the legal staff to work through.

What needs to be done is better education. I don't mean Reading, Riting, and 'Rithmatic. I mean "looking for a job 101". The average high school / college student (and graduate) does absolutely zero research when it comes to job hunting.

Well, ok.. zero is a little extreme... they'll look into how much it pays, what perks it might offer, and MAYBE whether they'll have to move. But research into the company, company policies, etc? Ha! For some reason, they assume they've left all the back-biting, crotch-kneeing, generally dishonest folk behind when they left school.

And Schools ENCOURAGE this. How many students blindly follow what the counselors suggest they take as a curriculum?

So. no.. make "Seeking Employment 101" a required course of study instead of trying to regulate things.

Look at it this way: regulation = Government intervention. When was the last time the government interfered with your life and made you happy in the doing?



Absolutely. I hope you aren't including Danc694u in that group,though. I think (putting words in his mouth - this is just my take on him) what he's getting at is that so many newbies come into the industry )as they do in most other industries( expecting to make top dollar from the outset.

And,of course,as he points out - it aint so. To make top dollar,you gotta pay your dues. Today,this means working under current conditions (or conditions as they change) to EARN top dollar.

Mentioning how things are not the same as they were 20 years ago is.. a digression.



The boards are not the end-all/be-all of research tools. Yes, for those of us with access,they're a godsend.

I think part of what Danc694u- and certainly part of what I'm getting at- is that anybody who trusts anybody with a vested interest in your actions is stupid.

Ok- to strong a word. Ignorant. They don't know any better.



Correct - this is just ONE of the options. I didn't base my decision on what I read here. I based it on what I read here, and in a half dozen other boards,and reading trucker magazines, and in talking to a bunch of drivers...

Relying on this forum (as nice as it is) is just as silly as relying on the recruiter.



by tools,I really mean 'ability to do research'.

I understand where you are coming from re: the issues. You have the presence of mind to poke into the dark corners and ask questions. Why? probably in large part because you spent time on the other side of the desk and KNOW that the employer isn't always volunteering information to the prospective employee.

I could suggest that the first step in fixing a problem is becoming aware of it in the first place...

But, I'm going to step back up a couple paragraphs... this issue is not specific to the trucking industry. It's prevalent in our culture- this assumption that the authority figure (teacher, cop, priest, recruiter) has your best interests at heart and would - therefore - never lie to you.

Back in the 60s they had a slogan "Question Authority". It seems fitting now- even though the idea behind it is a bit different from what it was then.

It's going to be a long uphill slog through 20 feet of semi-frozen mud, though, when you consider that one of the most common phrases uttered by parents and teachers in this country is "Because I say so"
[/color][/quote]