3406B/C Frankenstein

@wore out

 

The 9Y-4004 pistons and the 3421 nozzles go together. However unless it’s industrial no way is pin timed too far advanced with a 7E-5888 casting. The fastest cam they came with in a truck was 18 degrees. You have to go industrial to get the 24 then take its timing advance which is on or off and a truck advance and sorta make it work. I highly doubt you have the 18 degree cam as they were a 1 year only deal. Only way to know is pull the advance and look. The 9Y-4004 pistons are good for 24 degrees static start of advance around 1375 to 1400 with 9 degrees total puts you in there at 33 degrees. That’s plenty. (The ATAAC motors were 21 static and 11 degrees)

Now let’s just say that you have a 10.5 degree cam in the pump. Those have around 20 degrees of advance. It also starts much earlier at like 1260. For a total of 30 at 18-1900. The masses say advance the timing on those C models (most think all mechanical cuz #### they all the same) between a 1/4 to 1/2 a hole on flywheel depending on who you ask. A 1/4 hole is around 6 to 8 degrees and a half hole is 10 to 14 best I can tell with the meter so at a quarter now your starting around 18 and those pistons can stand that. But you’re ending at 38 which is too far. Let’s say you go a half and put 22 degrees static in it. Then you’re around 42 or so all in. That will crack anything. And that is also why advancing the time isn’t a good idea. It needs to be advanced very slightly if just assembled without pulling the slack out of the gear train.

Now the 9Y-4004 is a 14.5:1 compression ratio piston but it’s a narrow bowl with a thick top above the upper ring land.

The 160-1131 is a 14.5:1 compression ratio piston with a wide shallow bowl. Uses a wider spray pattern nozzle like the 3425. It also runs like 14 degrees static timing.

The cam that’s in it probably doesn’t matter much. It came with a 3012 cam that had high ramp lobes and ate lifters. The 3013 cam was better. But now CAT offers 1 it’s a 7048. If it’s been changed lately that’s what’s in it. If it hasn’t it needs to be.



The electronic CATS are overhead cam and have an injector lobe. The B injector lobe is in the pump.
All the electronic CATS have the same lift and duration on both intake and exhaust lobes. The difference in all those different cams is injector lobe placement, lift, and duration. I’m not looking to excite a riot so I’ll stop there. My point to explaining that is to say there is no secret sauce to cam shafts. The injector lobe on the electronic CATS does the job of the injection pump cam on a mechanical. So different HP etc the injector lobe is naturally going to be “different” there is no hot rod marine parts. If there was I’d still go industrial because industrial is rated at 1800 and marine is rated at 21.

The right washers come with the nozzles. You have 2 options 1 being find a 21 degree 7W-3906 7FB pump and put on it off an ATAAC motor. You could put some early 3ZJ pistons 7E-0539 on your rods then go with a 3588 nozzle and run your pump that you have. If your pump is good and you gotta over haul anyway that’s route I’d go cause it’s way cheaper. I like the C pump and higher pop pressure anyway provides better atomization. Even some of the parts place’s advertise the kit’s wrong. They see compression ratio and assume they interchange to a 4MG. And sure they will fit, but with 4MG nozzles and timing they are gonna crack.

This is key. Nozzle has to match the bowl and pump has to match them both. Throw that this nozzle flows more than that nozzle out the window. A

I have built what wasn’t meant to exist outtta mismatched parts. The right selection they are a hoss. Just throwing #### on it because it fits is disaster. A mechanical is a dependable fairly economical power plant. What they are not is the fire breathing monsters folks claim. They can be but they are hell for expensive and get problematic.

 

But they do not match those pistons, go to the 160-1131 14.5:1 wide bowl piston. Those nozzles and pistons were used together in a 3ER genset. That keep in mind was designed to hum at 1800 rpm. Has a humongous turbo on it that takes for ever to spool. So mind range on them is gonna be well you’ll see.


You can think you’re making power but trailing a little smoke. Well that bull #### you’ve read about bump the timing a little is gonna burn it up. I’m not saying they won’t pull set like you’ve read. I’m saying getting them to live 600k is the issue. I’ll put my stock 5KJ against them right down to the CAT turbo. The difference mines right. And mine will live 6-700k without breaking a sweat. I’ll Now if you’re going to run 8785 nozzles I can see where you’re headed. Order the small pin steel top endurance kit from IPD. Now that crown is out of a 3408E HUEI engine. It matches nothing in the realm of timing for a 3406 but you can get it really close. (Im a perfectionist so there’s that but I’m finishing one up this am with the steel top kit) put a 78/1.45 turbo on it. No a 1.45 will not be doggy. Nor will it over spool. You’re not gonna leave the pump screws alone that’s obvious. A warning you take them out or go too far it lets your rack go past full fuel and starts closing the scrolls off. The gear will catch pump cam corner and you’ll have trouble.


I’m not trying to be a smart ### or a prick etc. But I write one of these books once a week and 9 outta 10 times they take what they want to hear outta my advice then take what they want from the never done it crowd advice then PM me to help them figure it out. So I’ll make this offer bring to Arkansas I’ll get it right. I have more than plenty references to how one runs when it’s right. I assure you it’s way cheaper than the path you’re headed down. With a narrow rod motor to boot.

 

I gotta be honest for a triaxle I would stay with 1 piece piston. The 160-1131. You can run a 3425 as they were 5YG 460 horse nozzles (same piston as the 4CK peec 460 hp and that 3ER genset we talked about) with yiur pump I think it would make most sense to run the 4CK peec 460nozzles but that number is gone from my brain. I’ve always liked 14.5:1 and that piston is used all over creation and the nozzle figment to it is pretty wide. So you can play some and see what you like. Running a dump I would consider going with a 177148 turbo. It spools faster (not much but noticeable according to @Oxbow who has two trucks both with 4MG’s one with a 78/1.45 and one with the 177148) for stop and go I sorta think the smaller housing be better. But I haven’t run one. Now that’s just an opinion. There is nothing wrong with that steel top enhanced durability kit if you want steels. But you’re slinging more rotating mass and for 70k gross mostly you’ll be in good shape with the 1 piece aluminum. I used them in my cattle trucks for years. Yes I melted 1 or 2 I can’t remember but that was my fault.

I hate guessing horse power but when I was running a stock 5YG 460 that we converted to manual useing the original pump and timing advance we just swapped what was needed to make it mechanical. I was running 16 degrees @1000 with start of advance at 1270 all in at 31 at 2000. Had the rack maxed other that that it was original it put 5 to the ground but would run a little warm. I had a turbo built for it and it cooled off and done noticeably better but I never run on dyno again

OR-3590 is the 4CK 460 peec nozzle

 

FYI, the waste gate on the 177148 rusted up and the gate no longer worked. We replaced that with another
78 x 1.45. If I were running local dump truck the 177148 would be ###### hard to beat. The 1.45 doesn't cavitate though while a 1.32 will. For what we do, at this elevation, the 78 x 1.45 seems to provide the most air with cooler egt than anything else we have tried. I honestly do not know where our fuel/torque screws are relative to stock, but I do know that we cannot get to 900 on the pyrometer on either truck now. With the 177148 we could push 950, with no changes to anything but the turbo.

You suggested tbe 78 x 1.45. You were 100% correct for our application. We can pull hard at 6000 ft. elevation indefinitely without concern. We may have to watch coolant temps in the heat of summer a bit on a long pull, but we don't have to back off the fuel for egt. We are in the habit of lifting just a touch so that we are not quite maxing out boost. In summer, we get ~ 30 lbs. boost at a minimum. Below 0 ambient we get close to 40 lbs. @ 1500 to 1600.

None of this matters, except to say that your advice has proven accurate in my experience.

 

Northeast part a little hamlet called Elgin. We just got 2 liquor stores. Used to have a beer joint and a Methodist church. The congregation of the church got too small and it closed. Then Mr. Jim that owned the beer joint passed away. It’s dry county across the river so the liquor stores prosper. I’m not far from Jonesboro.


Check your advance if the weights wear through the washers she’ll go full advance at start up. That will burn holes in pistons. Did it have like a gas burner octane rattle in it when you were on the throttle? That’s a sign of too much timing. Was pump pinned or have you gotten that far yet? Reason I’m asking is that pump should be way slower on static timing. But like I said the weights wore through the races or when installed they didn’t get the advance seated against the pump sometimes you gotta kinda hold the center of advance back when you tighten it.

It’s very possible to have been installation error. However have the nozzles pop tested. I know you’re not gonna use them but you need a for sure definite answer on what happened so it doesn’t happen again. If pump was pinned properly and advance is fine take the pump to be looked at you could have a sunken lifter or lifters actually causing it. I just hate to assume then get it back together and it do a repeat