Baffled by the range claims

Yea you did, right here.

Baffled by the range claims

Your words, not mine. But I don't know what "hacked over information" means.

I hold a general. I went for the extra but passing two tests in one day was enough for me.

 

Where??

I said this -
Sorry dude, your links don't support your position.

The first one has nothing about line of sight, the second applies to water based vehicles where there is little ground wave activity possible.

Cb is still hf, it is within the spectrum that depends on the relationship with the earth to be useful. Unlike vhf and uhf, hf propagates with those factors involved that I mentioned where as vhf isn't effected by them or is very little.

Now if you want to argue the point, I have more than like [links] to websites with hacked over information on them to back me up but I do recommend you read about how hf works to get a good background on it.

Where did I say I had links?

No wonder... you have a reading comprehension problem.

I'll put it to you another way, if you want to argue the point, I have more resources to back my position up, unlike yours which are just links to websites with hacked over information on them and no references.

Hacked over means it is repeated and regurgitated information and is not always accurate. It is a term used in the world of monetized content sites - those are the click bait and informational sites that have lots of ads on them.

You went and ?? you failed?

OK ... I guess you know more than I do.

 

You said you had websites. You direct people to websites with links.

 

Nope I didn't I said that, I said "I have more than like [links]" more than links to back me up.

I get it, you have nothing to back your claims up, too funny.

Oh well ... you'll get over it.

 

I think I'm going to need more Popcorn.

 

I'm the only one who has posted any links. You've posted nothing. I'm done.

 

So, Ridgeline, if 27 MHZ and other HF isn't essentially dependent on what is commonly termed "line of sight" for reliable communications, how would you describe the operating theory?

 

OK I am going by memory on all of this, seeing I am not at my house but sitting in a car with my daughters laptop.

OK I am going to start with this - the correct term that should be used is Near Line of Sight (NLOS), not Line of Sight.

Why?

Because most of the NSOL waves take advantage of the earth and the conductivity of the earth, in relationship of the terrain and objects on the terrain.

So it is ground waves that matter more. This is not line of sight but near line of sight.

Summary - when a 27mhz signal is transmitted into a vertical antenna, it goes out and tilts toward a direction by the earth conductivity and follows the earth.

Details to by best of my memory.

This involves either plane waves or better called ground waves and it is those waves that we use on the 11 meter band. The 11 meter communications are propagated with waves parallel to and adjacent to the surface of the Earth, following the curvature of the Earth. This does not mean it is exclusive or it can't take advantage of skywave propagation, this is the norm for most communications in the HF range.

This type of wave is known as a Norton Surface Wave.

I won't get into the theory of the Norton Surface Wave but I will explain that it is the conductivity of the surface that effects how ground waves the propagate, with more conductive surfaces such as sea water providing better propagation.

To make it really technical - A Norton wave is by definition a surface wave part of the radiation field of an antenna placed on or above a surface. The field geometry as seen directly on the surface can be quite similar to a Zenneck wave with the exception that E and H decrease faster than 1/sqrt(r). - source BBC propagation theory 1989.

Now I have harassed Rabbi with his great distances at given locations while he is in a mobile station, he is taking advantage of highly conductive earth and because of this, there is less attenuation between the two mobile stations and this means that another theory gets brought into the picture, it is called Poynting vector, which has a lot to do with ground wave propagation, and even Coax cable and so on.

To make it more technical with his situation, it means that in a propagating sinusoidal linearly polarized electromagnetic plane wave of a fixed frequency (aka 27 mhz signal with a vertical polarization), the Poynting vector always points in the direction of propagation while oscillating in magnitude.

Got that?

By the way, if anyone wonders, that came from Wikipedia and I was the one who wrote the statement for another site which is where they got it.

SO I digress ....

So if there is an increasing of conductivity in a surface, the result is less dissipation from The refractive indices are subject to spatial and temporal changes. Since the ground is not a perfect electrical conductor, ground waves are attenuated as they follow the earth’s surface.

The wavefronts initially are vertical, but the ground, acting as a lossy dielectric, causes the wave to tilt forward as it travels (poynting vector comes in here). This directs some of the energy into the earth where it is dissipated, and the signal is attenuated as it travels.

So taking what Brandon said about boats, the link he has is wrong, there is no line of sight at 27mhz with a boat, I know this by the simple fact that the military takes advantage of the use of the 20-30mhz region to communicate between ships over the horizon because salt water is highly conductive and it is possible with a directional antenna to see a range of 200 miles, beyond the horizon.

ALSO I know most don't know about over the horizon ground radar systems used in the HF spectrum. The military had experimented with systems from the late 50's to the 80's in a wide hf spectrum and part of that spectrum when up to 40mhz, which means that ground wave propagation is possible UP to 40mhz.






OH and another thing.

If you wonder why the word counterpoise comes into antenna systems, it happens when there is less conductivity of the earth on horizontal antenna systems. It does not exist in mobile applications, not a bit because you can't have it, a mobile application has capacitance involved with relation to the earth's conductivity to make the antenna system work.

Now that I confused the hell out of everyone, go learn more about it, it gets really really involved. more so than any amateur radio test.

 

Got to add something I forgot.

There are several reasons why the antenna height is important for some but not all applications, and I am not talking about a relation between antenna on one station to another but an antenna and the ground.

One reason is the way the vertical polarized HF signal uses the earth to propagate, the height seems to (forget the term) give the signal the ability to limit the attenuation of the signal while it travels along the earth.

The other thing is attenuation of the signal is proportional to frequency, but it is not limited to an upper portion of a given sub-band (LW,MW,SW, ect. ...), this reaches as I said up to and beyond 30mhz. Some times the attenuation of a signal can be mitigated by raising the antenna.

OK there, I am done, no links to sites that just leave out everything important.

 

(Coup-de-grace).

I got the good news this morning that my son is willing to start into Amateur Radio once home from Middle East contractor rotation.

Now, mind you, he’s a USMC pilot & Ivy League grad-degree holder. No one’s fool.

. . so I plan to send those two posts immediately above along with the notation, “ yeah, this good ol’ boy truck driver knocked these out the other day while we was yakkin’ ‘bout antennas and such. Kinda clears things up, don’t it?”

Ha!!

(I’m keeping those for study. Am thoroughly deficient on acquired vocabulary, never mind the theory. Thanks, RL. Good point of departure for me as it was well-explained).

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