Can't Sleep Here!

littlebit · Dec 25, 2006

Sullyman said: ↑

I am just a little curious, what would happen if you were out of hours and the shipper, or receiver was still requesting that you move along. Are you by law required to move, or can you decline because you are out of hours?
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You can tell them you out of hours all you want. They will still make you move.

Sullyman · Dec 25, 2006

What if you refused?

MACK E-6 · Dec 27, 2006

When you run out of hours, you are not entirely prohibited from driving. You are only prohibited from driving out of the municipality you are in. This creates problems like those mentioned in this thread such as when you are told to leave private property. You can drive clear across town to find a place to park if necessary, as long as you don't leave town. Also you would still have to log hunting for a place to park on line 4, regardless of how long it takes.

As for refusing to leave private property when ordered to, refusal to leave on your own may result in a citation for trespassing from the local police, or you may leave on a hook at your expense.

LogsRus · Dec 28, 2006

MACK E-6 said: ↑

When you run out of hours, you are not entirely prohibited from driving. You are only prohibited from driving out of the municipality you are in. This creates problems like those mentioned in this thread such as when you are told to leave private property. You can drive clear across town to find a place to park if necessary, as long as you don't leave town. Also you would still have to log hunting for a place to park on line 4, regardless of how long it takes.

As for refusing to leave private property when ordered to, refusal to leave on your own may result in a citation for trespassing from the local police, or you may leave on a hook at your expense.
Click to expand...

Mack: I don't believe this is true about running all over the municipality to find a place to park. Once you are out of hours you can not drive that truck. I e-mailed Indianapolis Federal DOT and asked this very question and why I did that is because in the Canada Regulations it does state in their Q&A the shipper/consignee must let the driver stay there, and I wanted to see what the Federal DOT regs was on this. Now you might get by with running around town and no one ever finding out, but there is the chance of getting busted! I believe it should be a regulation if a customer takes longer and that puts the driver out of hours it should be a state law to allow the driver to stay there. Only under them circumstances though. Below is the question and answer from DOT.

MY QUESTION:

In Canada's regulations book it states the below comment:
No motor carrier, shipper, consignee or other person shall request,
require or allow a driver to drive and no driver shall drive if

A) the driver's faculties are impaired to the point where it is
unsafe for the driver to drive;
B) driving would jeopardize or be likely to jeopardize the safety
or health of the public, the driver or the employees of the motor
carrier;
C) the driver is subject of an out-of-service declaration; or
D) the driver, in doing so, would not be in compliance with these
Regulations

The way I read this is, if a driver is at a shipper/consignee and he
will be violating his 11,14 or 70 hr the Shipper/Consignee has to let
the driver stay on the property until the driver is in compliance.

Is this true in the United States?

If so:

How does a driver handle a customer who says I will call the police and
have you removed

HIS ANSWER
I am not familiar with Canadian CMV safety regulations. However,
in the United States, if a driver is at a shipper/ consignee he or she
may not operate the vehicle until they have enough hours.

The U.S. DOT has no jurisdiction over shipper's other than the Hazardous
Material regulations. If the shipper or consignee wants a driver or
vehicle off of their property, appropriate state laws would apply.

Let's say the consignee wants the vehicle off the property and your
driver has no hours. You have four options; you could supply another
driver with hours, you could wrecker the vehicle off the property, you
could take no action or you could order the driver to move the vehicle.

If you choose option three and take no action, the shipper/consignee
could possibly file an action against the driver or the carrier
according to the appropriate state laws. If you choose option four and
tell the driver, who is out of hours, to move the vehicle, the FMCSA
regulations would allow you to be charged with aiding or abetting.
Options one or two are the way to go!

Brickman · Dec 28, 2006

DigiTrucker said: ↑

Setting aside the issue of parking at a Wal-Mart facility, the bigger issue is the DOT Hours of Service.

I'm 13 years in the trucking industry and the days when being behind on your log for even a few hours (much less a day or more) are gone. We, as an industry, need to realize that we are collectively headed for the day of the ON BOARD RECORDING DEVICE as mandated by the DOT. It's not just PATT and CRASH that are advocating these things and they are but a tiny part of the full equation. We have years of driver violations that are finally being enforced (and in some cases perhaps a bit too enthusiastically by some jurisdictions) while at the same time many municipalities are outright banning trucks much less overnight parking or idling within community limits.

One thing drivers attempting to comply with the myriad of malarkey regulations, stipulations, and postulations placed on our "ilk" need to remember is federal regulations will ultimately reign supreme if you have to take a stand. That is, federal regulations supercede municipal no parking ordinances. If faced with this type of situation a driver's best recourse is to have the "ducks in a row" so to speak. Make sure you're legally at or beyond your 11th or 14th hour. If not, you cannot prevail; you can only comply (referring back to the original post on this thread as the safety or dispatch team suggested rechecking his/her log and going from there). Having attained 11 or 14, then a driver needs the support of the carrier and especially the safety department. Many local police or sheriff's departments aren't familiar with federal regulations concerning trucking--they are local for a reason. Keep in mind that you can always request any officer brought on scene in such an instance to call out his watch commander or immediate superior. They do not like this request as it makes them look somewhat inept higher up their food chain. BUT!!! Make sure you're uber-polite. Losing your temper with an officer will result in more problems. State your position clearly and carry with you a copy of the FMCSR as updated as you can get. Call your carrier and get them involved immediately. Once the superior is on scene request a DOT certified state trooper. Each time they must call the next level out or face a very serious issue should you be illegally "coerced" (this is a legal term referring to forcing someone to perform an act they are legally prohibited from performing or vice-a-versa--it applies both ways) and later file a lawsuit in the situation. Also, it's a very good idea to turn on a recording device of some kind, audio tape, video tape, etc, to get your record of events--and make it KNOWN that you are recording everything you can get.

I had a similar situation arise at a receiver just after the 2004 version of the new HOS came out. Signs on the customer's receiving window indicated no parking on the facility. I mentioned their policy directly to the receiving clerk and explained that I would be out of drivable time in 3 hours and politely requested to be unloaded and released in sufficient time to move off--even explaining that I intended to do exactly as they requested. Their receiving personnel, however, saw one more instance of a "smart-assed" truck driver trying to hurry them up in unloading dry grocery product. We spent four hours--with me ON THE DOCK observing the unloading and logging line four as required. Once finished, they released me and I requested a space be made available to park, only to be told they do not allow parking by the same clerk to whom I had earlier explained my predicament regarding hours. I pulled away from the door and to the back of the lot. Eventually security came around and told me to leave or they would call the local police--which they had already done. The local officer arrived on the scene and immediately my digital voice recorder clicked on and went in my shirt pocket. I was told by the officer to move on or face arrest for "criminal trespass." I explained that I was recording and out of hours as per federal DOT hours of service--and I called my company (which at the time was having issues with the new HOS and wasn't sure about compliance so I was left flapping in the breeze by the safety department--small company and no one likes 3 A.M. wake up calls for this kind of thing). I requested the officer call out his watch commander and a DOT officer--he refused saying something along the line of we don't really need to go that far with this (sic). Then I suggested he should sign off on my log book indicating he ordered me off the property in violation of the DOT HOS. He flatly refused. But I did get him to give me his badge number, name, and post phone number. At this point I did the last and only thing I could: complied and left but logged every moment of the 45 minutes it took to get to another safe/legal parking area (read: truck stop) and turned in the log page to safety--only to be called in and told "we will not tolerate drivers falsifying their logs this way" and I needed to "fix it" or face getting a written warning. I played back the digial recording the conversation with the officer and reminded the safety manager (whom I had spoken with at the time) he did not back my compliance with the HOS and therefore I would neither falsify my log as ordered by him nor would I sign an acknowledgement of a warning for falsification when I did not falsify the record of duty status. The matter was subsequently dropped by the safety department of the company but they have been much easier to deal with in these instances since.

Another thing that correlates to this kind of situation: when you run 100% compliant, such issues as these WILL cause a late delivery but when carriers are forced into a situation where they must explain why to the customer their cargo is late and that it is due solely to the customer's behavior--and the driver has all the proof--things will change in the industry. Those who capitulate to the abuse of carriers and customers in such situations and "fix" their logs then go without the proper rest (as defined by DOT HOS) are two things: #1: part of the problem and not the solution to our industry's internal growing pains and #2 (and in no way least) a physical threat to the public's safety at large.

Time marches on, folks, and with each second ticking away at the clock we get one second closer to mandated on-board recording devices. The more WE comply to the HOS the better our position--and the less likely we are to face criminal charges in the untimely (not unlikely) event of a major crash. When carriers wake to the reality of better compliance and better utilization of available hours things will DEFINITELY change for the better in our universe.

Be safe!
Click to expand...

Your post outlines one of the major problems with the On Board Recorders. When you are out of hours shippers/recievers will be forced to allow you to stay parked when its their screw up. Also those that support the recorders have failed to realize that trucking IS NOT an exact science. And cannot be treated as such.

mjstef · Dec 28, 2006

pro1driver said: ↑

i didn't bother to copy your entire posting as it would serve no purpose for my response to you. you can have all the recording devices you want (you mentioned that you did), you can explain all you want to the local police (which you said you did), you can tell the shipper or reciever your hours of service rules (which you did), but in the end, you still gotta get off the property, so what good did it actually do you to do all of that...??

nothing, not a blessed darn thing did it accomplish. as i stated in my posting above, as a driver myself, now a yardman, i truely felt badly for the driver i had to tell to get off the property even though he was told it was a 24/7 operation, (which it absolutey isn't). i wish i could have "hidden him" in a back corner so he could get some sleep. but, the neighbors would have called the police, and reported it.

so why should i risk getting myself into trouble for anyone...?? why should i risk my employer to get his butt chewed out from the customer, when the customer reports my actions to my employer...??

in the end, as a driver, you just gotta follow the rules.....of the CUSTOMER.......PERIOD........or risk losing future work from them. then, your employer would have every reason to fire you, as the customer would definately call your employer and report you...........

afterall, you are the first and perhaps the only representative a customer actually see's in person, as everyone else from your company probably just phones the customer for work, etc.

the best thing anyone can do is simply get off the property, comply with THE CUSTOMER, as no one really knows all the reasons why you can't stay on the property, and frankly, we are drivers, not the CEO or some other "important person" that needs a reason............you do as you are TOLD........

and voice recording machines, talking with an officer, asking for a "signature", etc,etc, is all wasted time you'll never, ever get back.......
Click to expand...

But if the driver left and got in an accident he could turn around and sue you and your company and win.............................

LogsRus · Dec 28, 2006

I think this would be somewhat of a good thread to start, it would answer many of my questions and probably many others!

Has anyone been in an accident after leaving a shipper/consignee after telling the customer they really needed to stay to get legal on their logs?
If so did you sue anyone?

I am curious? Should I start a post something along this line or anyone who would like to?

LogsRus · Dec 28, 2006

Actually I think eventually (really soon) all major companies will be required to have the on board devices. I believe it does help drivers stay legal (although to legal) and it eliminates fines for the companies.
I wonder also how many accidents or fines Werner has yearly since they are the only one with the on-board (well major one that I know of)

So many thoughts go through my head, to figure out what is the best way to log or audit logs? That is just me though ok! :smt061

Brickman · Dec 28, 2006

LogsRus said: ↑

Actually I think eventually (really soon) all major companies will be required to have the on board devices. I believe it does help drivers stay legal (although to legal) and it eliminates fines for the companies.
I wonder also how many accidents or fines Werner has yearly since they are the only one with the on-board (well major one that I know of)

So many thoughts go through my head, to figure out what is the best way to log or audit logs? That is just me though ok! :smt061
Click to expand...

So the rumors go that Werner's saftey score isn't really all that good.

I'm leased to Landstar Ranger and have not paid one red cent to the gooberment fund raising efforts in 2006. I feel good about that.

the-waco-kid · Dec 29, 2006

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