Consequences for First HOS Violation

Discussion in 'Questions From New Drivers' started by Bobcat13, May 13, 2019.

  1. Accidental Trucker

    Accidental Trucker Road Train Member

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    I'm sorry, but I disagree. You quote a specific example in the guidelines, and then draw the conclusion that PC is LIMITED to the circumstances in that example. It is not.

    The "spirit of the law", so to speak, is that a driver may seek safe parking if forced to leave. Examples are given as kicked out from a shipper, receiver, or the direction of LE. Other situations that would, in my opinion, clearly fall under the "kicked out, no other choice" purpose of the updated PC guidance would be running out of hours due to a customs inspection, a road side inspection, a road side repair, road closure due to weather, to name but a few. The purpose of the guidance is to allow drivers to legally scoot out of a bad situation to a place they can safely rest.

    The guidance SPECIFICALLY states the driver must seek the nearest safe parking, no matter the direction (load advancement, or not). In this case. the driver is forced to leave (no parking at a truck stop after fueling), which is clearly the purpose of the guidance. He scooted across the road, which is by definition the nearest safe parking.

    No foul.
     
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  3. ZVar

    ZVar Road Train Member

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    Except the fact we've had LEO's come in here and say that by state policy they have to give out tickets unless it's specified in the guidance or regulations. There is no extra "spirit of the law" allowed.
    Will most let it pass? Sure. Will 100%? Of course not. Heck we've had people post here their citations.

    Show me where in the guidance where it allows this. It's simply not there. To keep saying it's allowed is wrong and bad advice.
     
  4. Bobcat13

    Bobcat13 Bobtail Member

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    .

    I was loaded, should’ve said that. My bad.
     
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  5. Red Pill

    Red Pill Bobtail Member

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    your probably right
     
  6. Moose1958

    Moose1958 Road Train Member

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    This constant bickering about PC what it is and is not totally misses the issue. The FMCSA is NOT (EVER) going to change the rules in 395 to allow a driver an escape when confronted by that dang 14-hour clock. The FMCSA has had many industry invited speakers and fielded comments on this. Several months ago I went into detail on this. Some companies were concerned about the whistleblower section, I won't repeat my comment.

    This not changing part 395 is why there are no black and white rules. The FMCSA will never take on that liability (EVER)! So they backdoored a change on the PC guidance (and it is clearly there) to allow drivers a way out. DO NOT USE question 26 that is in the guidance section of 395.8 because it has been superseded and the FMCSA has not got the updated language I linked to there yet. This is a bit old, but it was one of the reasons the FMCSA changed question 26 in the guidance section of 395.8. Before this change, the FMCSA had drivers trapped between violating 395 after being coerced or having to leave a dock.

    If a state DOT officer happens to cite a driver for reasonable use of PC get the FMCSA involved and fight it in court. IT IS NOT considered a HOS violation by the FMCSA. Most all state DOT officers get their training through the CVSA and they are teaching this change to these officers.
     
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  7. im6under

    im6under Heavy Load Member

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    There is this strange fantasy many companies have... that they are the "dot /police"

    They are not. Its their truck and they can fire you... that is the end of their power.

    An hos violation does not come from your company. It only comes from the dot in person or in an audit.

    If your safety guy sees an issue he may be pissy but it really isnt his job to to hand out willy nilly company demerits.

    His job is to train advise and help you correct your mislog or supplemental remarks for clarity.

    If you are running hot and bypassing safe parking... thats a violation.

    Driving across the street to safe parking is not a violation.

    Its not a violation loaded or empty within a reasonable time constraint and distance.

    You are driving and out of hours, log it as driving and include a brief description. Ran out of time searching for safe parking, found parking and am now logging to on duty to complete entries, then off duty for my full 10 hour break.

    This is not a license to run your clock out nightly. Frequent flyer miles kills credibility.

    Also... dont let your company policy bs you as to what constitutes unladen.

    Unladen doesnt mean bobtailing. It means an unloaded semi tractor trailer.

    Do you have to log sleeper... yes if thats where you were.

    Do you have to show a motel reciept if you werent in the sleeper or have a daycab?

    Nope... if you arent in the sleeper... but you are off duty (relieved of responsibility) go do whatever you want and whatever constitutes substantial rest for you. That can actually be sleeping in the grass under the stars or in your buddies sleeper... ha...

    Just log it like it happens. Dont drive if you dont have to... plan ahead. Sometimes that wont work and you have to hit the next closest off ramp. Not the one 40 miles down the road... the next closest whochever direction that is.
     
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  8. Moose1958

    Moose1958 Road Train Member

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    I agree with everything you wrote, However, I would word what I quoted a bit differently. Because of the heavy-handed way the FMCSA deals with a Carrier after the fact in some regards a carrier has to act more like a DOT enforcement agency. I was speaking to a friend the other day that told me the FMCSA is giving his company some static because of some mistakes they made with complying with 391.

    A company is NOT a DOT officer and they don't issue official enforcement actions. However, they do have to self-police because if they did not the FMCSA at some point would shut them down.

    I would also add that a carrier has to self-police to avoid exposing themselves to some severe legal liability in regard to lawsuits.
     
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  9. Moose1958

    Moose1958 Road Train Member

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    I was going to edit this but decided to quote it and add something.

    I have been advising drivers for years now to do your best to notate time in and time out on your bills. I know this is difficult when picking up. To this day I keep a small notebook in my shirt pocket. Back when I was driving I would use it to notate times when and where I fueled how much etc. I did this primarily because for the last few years I stopped getting fuel receipts. I also noted when I arrived at a dock. Then I would write right on my bills times in and time out. same with a delivery. These kinds of things can help show a DOT officer what your status is. Yes it is true a DOT cop dead set to write a citation will not be deterred but most normal guys will see you are trying to do the proper thing and some will help you. Many years ago I was caught up in Ohio and was almost out of hours. Had a DOT cop to stop me going south toward Chillicothe. Because I was proactive with the officer apologized profusely about the HOS bust he smiled and told me where there was a place near an eating place I could go park.
     
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  10. spyder7723

    spyder7723 Road Train Member

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    Are you suggesting parking on a ramp?
     
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  11. Moose1958

    Moose1958 Road Train Member

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    Just for the record. There are some places along the interstate highway system where trucks can legally park very near a ramp. Mississippi has several and Nebraska has a large on on interstate 80.
     
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