Docking during 10 hour

After furtherr consideration, my opinion remains that some sort of provision of this sort would really ease the ability to deal with odd circumstances without having to upend ones schedule as a result. 2 hours per 70 hour cycle is also consistent with the other parts of the code, like the 2 hour extension for bad weather. Maybe, it should even be merged with the bad weather provision. It is certainly worth consideration. Obviously PC is effective as well, but in a one truck operation for instance one might be reluctant to use it since by definition it wouldnt be exactly by the book. When one considers for instance, a delay that results in a driver who typically runs days to have to run nights on a multiple day load vs using a provision like this which allows them to keep their preferred schedule, I would think forcing them to run nights might be the more dangerous option than allowing a 5 minute truck move during their break.

This 2 hours, should the regulators decide it was appropriate and figure out a name and justification for it, could be used in multutude of different ways:

A driver stuck in traffic could extend their clock by 2 hours similar to the bad weather provision.

A driver could move the truck while on break period at a shipper if necessary, without resetting their clock.

Of course there is one part of the existing code it conflicts with, and that is the 10 hours of undisturbed break, but seeing that split sleeper are allowed, perhaps it's not totally in conflict.

Of course in practice, for many this might be used to simply have a 72 hour cycle rather than a 70. In my case, I only rarely hit right at 69.xx hours, due to loads simply not adding up to that. It might be that I reset at 58 hours, or at 65, etc. So perhaps not a big deal.

The justification for this, in my mind, is mostly with regard to small operations that presumably have to keep things pretty above board to avoid risking their csa score or authority.

Just my opinions, maybe helpful to someone looking at this issue.

 

I had breakfast this morning with an old friend! We were discussing this detention issue and in doing so I was reminded of some of my experiences with food warehouses. To start with as most of you know finding a good parking place in Miami is not easy. I remember being in a warehouse watching the sun come up and later still there watching it go down. I had one of those loads that had extensive breakdowns it was so bad the Lumper charged OVER $600 to unload it. I not only busted my 14, but I also fractured it! I was running paper and back then the lumper receipts had to match my logs. About 4 PM I called safety and told them about this impending bust! I spoke to the actual head of safety and he told me to use my head and do what I had to do. I finally was able to find a parking place in a C-store and spent most of that night dealing with LLs. The next morning safety called me wanting to know how bad was my bust and how far did I drive. They said OK and I never heard about it again.

 

A Pete idling with 10 inch pipes and a 20 year old Carrier reefer parked next to me. I went PC to move to a quieter spot to get back to sleep.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

 

BS! I made clear to you in another thread that for the purposes of HOS a CMV is defined as a vehicle ON THE ROAD!
Because there is no definition of CMV actually in 395 YOU MUST use the one in 390! I am aware of what 395 says about driving time! It clearly says at the controls of a CMV. The only problem with the way you are interpreting this is you are at odds with the OFFICIAL definition of a CMV found in 390.

Commercial motor vehicle means any self-propelled or towed motor vehicle used on a highway in interstate commerce to transport passengers or property when the vehicle—
(1) Has a gross vehicle weight rating or gross combination weight rating, or gross vehicle weight or gross combination weight, of 4,536 kg (10,001 pounds) or more, whichever is greater; or
(2) Is designed or used to transport more than 8 passengers (including the driver) for compensation; or
(3) Is designed or used to transport more than 15 passengers, including the driver, and is not used to transport passengers for compensation; or
(4) Is used in transporting material found by the Secretary of Transportation to be hazardous under 49 U.S.C. 5103 and transported in a quantity requiring placarding under regulations prescribed by the Secretary under 49 CFR, subtitle B, chapter I, subchapter C.

You can work or move that vehicle as much as you desire for as long as you desire when in a terminal or a dock. The thing is you have to be in compliance with the HOS rules once you get moving again. If you can't because of circumstances you must either stay there and get your clock back or use PC to get to a place where you can.

I have confirmed this with three DOT cops! They don't give a flying (redacted) what a trucker does when OFF the public road system. They just want you IN 100% compliance when you do enter a highway! The only time DOT is concerned about what happens in terminals and docks is the handling of materials defined by 397!

One more point and I am going to do something that galls me to no end. Place you on ignore for a while. Not because you have won some kind of a victory, but because at some time when you are wrestling with a pig in the mud you start to see the pig enjoys it! You seem hellbent that you are right and screw everybody else! I will admit that with today's ELDs and the crazy way the FMCSA can be with HOS the best recommendation is to STAY PUT! The problem with this advice is sometimes circumstances dictate you MUST move! This can't be helped then to constantly use the HOS rules like a hammer the way you do might well cause a problem for a young driver scared to death to move! Young drivers need to know that sometimes you can only do so much to deal with your time and unfortunately, you can't control your time 100% of the time in this business. Then having them call their carrier for guidance is THE BEST advice they can get! I'm done with this silly crap!

 

And yet all the guidance in 395 disagrees with you. As does every single inspection and citation done that was a road that isn't a highway.

But that wasn't my point anyway. My point was do not blindly trust your carrier to tell you a legal way to run. They care about profit more than your driving record. (Well the bad ones anyway.)

 

I’d only add that while Moose is correct that On Duty - Driving is only required when on the road, not on private property, you are legally required to be On Duty unless the truck is parked. If you’re moving, On Duty - Yard Move allows you to move from parking to the dock. But you knew that, right?

 

The HOS rules are not complicated to understand. Outside of part 397 the HOS rules are not something to be concerned about when NOT on a highway. You must be in compliance to legally operate on a highway. The FMCSA doesn't care how much you move when NOT on a highway. They do set the rules on how on duty is defined. The HOS rules can be like that finger thing. You have to actually release the pressure to get free of it. One more point. People are free to have their opinion of the HOS rules or for that matter any section of title 49 CFR. The thing is just because you are taking something out of context does not mean your opinion is right! It just means it is an opinion. I took the time to write an email to someone I know in the Georgia DPS Motor Carrier Compliance dept to their private email because it was the weekend. I took screenshots of this thread along with a link to it. This person who is also a CVSA member wrote me back several hours ago laughing at some of these replies. He called this person a self-important rule thumper that he has to deal with all the time. It's best to ignore this kind of ignorance!

 

I was talking to a driver one day at a shipper that has extraordinary long loading times. He was telling me that he was running out of hours even though he had been in the dock for like eight hours or something.

I asked him if he logged Sleeper Berth while he's being loaded and he said that his company does not permit him to do that.

I did not realize some companies have that type of a policy.

 

Agreed, some carriers are really tight about what they will allow. The thing is this is a carrier policy!

On this subject but from way out in left field. I wonder how many people know that the Tenerife disaster involving two 747s crashing on the runway that killed OVER 500 souls was at its heart based partly on on-duty hours about to expire? The flight crew of the KLM was close to not being able to fly any longer and did not want to get stuck on the Canary Islands! This caused the Capt of the KLM to get reckless!

 

I didn’t know that about Tenerife! That’s crazy.

Oh, one more minor point that sometimes gets confusing: “Highway” means any public road in this context.