EPA clamping down

Discussion in 'Trucks [ Eighteen Wheelers ]' started by DDS, Nov 14, 2012.

  1. durallymax

    durallymax Medium Load Member

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    Biodiesel has higher NOX emissions. PM is slightly lower though.

    I wouldnt reccomend switching between the two stick with one, dino diesel. I'm all for biofuels if they can work out some of their issues, but I will never support Corn Ethanol or Soybean Ethanol even though I myself am a farmer and have many friends who benefit from these products.

    Aside from the politics of it, the main reason not to switch back and forth is the cleaning. biodiesel is a powerful solvent and will scrub your fuel system clean and plug up your filters which will piss you off.
     
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  3. southerndude

    southerndude Light Load Member

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    I find all of these "emissions reduction systems" to be vile and disgusting. Not in a literal way but rather based on principle.

    The original Diesel engine was designed to give a cheap source of power to farmers. To give them a great tool that ran cheaply. Cheaply, because it was designed to operate on peanut oil. There has not been a diesel engine that has been built since then that cannot run on peanut oil. In fact... it runs cleaner, better and gives longer life to the engine. How much pollution does peanut oil spew into the atmosphere? ZERO, ZILCH, NADA, NONE.

    Manufacturers, government officials and those who wield the power have always known the solution to the polluting trucks. They have just chosen not to implement it because those that have the power are also tied into the oil industry and it would take away their income.

    We can't have that now can we? So they come up with other "technologies" that cost the truck operator to spend even more money on a consumable that they will need to do if they want their truck to work. So now... gotta fill up on the "diesel" fuel as well as the blue stuff and now there will be no loss of profit only MORE PROFIT! Hey... what a solution!

    Diesel engine + peanut oil = no pollution and a cheap source of fuel.

    Things that make you say Hmmmmm......
     
  4. durallymax

    durallymax Medium Load Member

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    There will still be pollution .


    Sent from my SCH-R530U using Tapatalk 2
     
  5. TA63

    TA63 Bobtail Member

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    I don't have to argue the logistics of producing that extra gallon plus. Its obvious to everyone who can think critically how it negatively affects the trucking industry and country as a whole. How much has the price of a diesel engine risen since tier 4 emission standards have taken effect? How much extra does the average owner/operator spend on fuel due to less efficient diesel engines? That cost is obviously passed on to the consumer. How much more oil do we import to feed these less efficient engines? Reducing emissions is a great thing, but it is starting to drastically affect our economy.
     
  6. Sportster2000

    Sportster2000 Road Train Member

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    I think that the global demand for oil is affecting our economy more than these "less efficient engines" which aren't "less effcient" if you really looked at what has been done to them.
     
  7. Gasienica

    Gasienica Heavy Load Member

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    I think America is sitting on a gold mine and using everyone else's oil recourses before we tap into our gold mine and become the top dogs of oil.
     
  8. Sportster2000

    Sportster2000 Road Train Member

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  9. durallymax

    durallymax Medium Load Member

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    To elaborate on my vague post from before, there are many reasons your "ideal" is not economical.

    What many people argue is dollars and sense as well as sustainability. In the long run peanut oil or any other biodiesel could be more sustainable however im a firm believer the diesel engine will only be known in history books by then. Im a diesel fanatic till the day i die and its sad that most of the local companies around here are committed to CNG/LNG. However what is not sad is the economics of it, it makes more sense for all of the urban companies to use it. While I miss the sound of a diesel rumbling by to pick up the trash or to announce the UPS guy is here, I do understand its important to view many alternatives for a clean future.

    Peanut oil has the same flaw as soy oil. While it does produce twice as many gallons per acre it still is simpmy not economic. In order to get something mainstream it has to pencil out on paper, which it doesnt. Algae oil shows the kost potential at over 100 times more production potential per acre, but there is still the underlying issue of implementing it in.

    Biodiesel has many shortfalls. While gelling can be offset with heaters it still poses an issue for many, you see how many people conplain about reduced fuel economy on some cleaner engines now, what makes you think theyll enjoy reduced fuel economy on a cleaner engine because it runs on biodiesel? Then there are the higher NOX emissions which can be combatted by tuning the engine to run inefficiently or by using more DEF. Algae growth is another issue that plagues biodiesel. One of the biggest issues that people are running into now is the water issues that accompany biodiesel. There is always water entrained in biodiesel and its extremely hard to get it clean enough. With an old fuel system running 5,000 psi through a simple injector its not as big of a deal. However for the new systems running over 30,000psi with piezo injectors firing up to 7 times and taking so much power to open them they require high voltage wire loom, any water is too much. The smallest finger print in a new system component will cause it to fail immediately. Many of the new pump failures are biodiesel

    Contrary to many peoples beliefs , dino diesel is much cheaper currently. Biodiesel and Ethanol are subsidized so heavily that they would go out of business without them.

    You need to look at the big picture. Look at my familys operation for example. We are a large dairy farm and have to compete for land with the farmers growing corn and beans. Thanks to biofuels those farmers are cashing big checks and driving up rent and input costs for us and at the same time the feed we have to purchase even just as byproducts has gone through the roof. Meanwhile the milk price stays low as it has for awhile, while the inputs keep getting higher.

    I dont know about you but i like my ice cream,milk,cheese,yogurt and many other dairy products too much to support any biofuel that requires a significant amount of acreage and competes with our feed supply.

    There is only so much oil but there is also only so many acres. With urban sprawl that number is getting smaller. There isnt any "extra" land for biofuels. With public critcism on many modern farming practices being used to increase production per acre, it makes life even harder. If the consumer doesnt want GMO's,irrigation,proper tillage and manure application,fertilizer and pesticides then they need to realize were going to need more land just for crops and they either need to starve or forget about inefficient crop based fuels like corn and soybeans. Those are successful for nothing more than good marketing.


    As far as diesel engine cost. It really hasnt gone up as high as you would think, its simply increased with everything. The emissions equipment adds a couple thousand dollars.

    The technologies that have been born out of these "terrible" engines have been amazing. Without many of the advances we would not have the potential to build engines as quiet, efficient and customizeable. These engines have the potential to last longer and be more effecient than the older engines. Look where were at now. Look where we were at just 3 years ago. Drastic changes. Like anything it takes time to perfect and they are doing it well. The regulations wont leave, all we can do is help the OEMs better their systems by providing helpful feedback on our vehicles, not whining or conplaining because that gets you nowhere.

    DEF is not that much money in the long run. If you look at fuel usage numbers on engines without SCR the added fuel usage makes DEF look retardedly cheap.
     
  10. durallymax

    durallymax Medium Load Member

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    If you are going to talk emissions please educate yourself on the topic. It will help your credibility and help to reduce confusion and mis information for others.
    Tier 4 is part of off road emissions.

    The heavy duty on road sector has standards simply referred to as EPA04,EPA07 and EPA10. Some refer to them by the new emissions devuce added at each interval. EGR,DPF,SCR.

    Tier 1,2,3,4i,4b are the off road standards. We are currently on Tier 4 interim. Tier 4 final will be phased in 2014-15. Off road is broken into many different power categorys. All of the 175-750hp engines will be using SCR if they do not already to meet Tier 4 Final.

    Passenger cars and light trucks use a similar confusing system. Tier 2 with 10 different bins. Current on road passenger diesels meet Tier 2 Bin 5. All passenger vehicles are using SCR to meet the standards as well.




    On the topic of fuel efficiency I would like to ask this question. Exactly what vehicles that you personally own and/or have extensive time spent with them to draw the conclusion that under the same scenario the latest generation engines using SCR are getting worse fuel econony? Specifically what are you comparing them to? Again only owners or those with significant time in them can talk.

    I have a hunch many of you are still stuck referring to the DPF/EGR engines that did indeed use much more fuel. However in all of my experiences and in other reports from credible owners these engines are doing as good or better than all previous engines not just the terrible EPA07 engines.

    For those who still feel they have seen a decrease,stop and think. What did you spec differntly on this truck if anything. Has your route changed? Are your loads different? Different operator in your truck? Those things can affect it much more and you wouldnt believe the amount of people who overlook them and simlly blame the emissions equipment. I had one guy telling me how bad his new truck was on fuel which had a 450 isx. I asked him what truck he was comparing it to, turns out he was comparing it to a truck with a 2002 330 ISM and to top it off he was running LTL then and now was pulling a flatbed.

    Details matter.

    The new engunes are getting better by the day. You can fight them,quit trucking or work to find a number of solutions to the overall problem of how to move freight effeciently, economically and practically.
     
  11. Cat sdp

    Cat sdp . .

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    Durallymax, you family farmers have my thanks. I think trucking sucks, but you guys have a tougher road to hoe. I bet you will enjoy your next farm tractor purchase , with it's dpf and scr.

    I checked Banks and bullydogs website no mention of any stop in sales.
     
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