How Many Schools Make You Falsify Logs?

Actually my school, All State Career is registered as a trucking company with IFTA stickers and DOT numbers on the road trucks. Our trucks travel on federal highways and interstates, sometimes cross state lines, and must meet the DOT standards of road worthiness. These trucks are subject to CSA 2010, and the school can be put out of service by DOT. The instructor I mentioned before actually wrote the school a ticket for a mechanic using a paper clip in place of a cotter pin on a castle nut. The mechanic got fired for it. Most of our trucks are range trucks only and cannot pass inspection. Those can never leave the lot.

Our current CSA scores:
http://ai.fmcsa.dot.gov/SMS/Data/carrier.aspx?enc=Y6eovM9PwB8DWbk+wl0zHZtu54isSflxjmtHAOikbvg=

 

We had been a 480 hour course (200 classroom, 280 behind the wheel). That wasn't good enough for the Maryland Higher Education Commission. They were threatening to pull accreditation if we didn't bump the hours up to 640. So now we have an additional 180 hours of homework time reading and completing this stupid book: Professionalism, Skills for Workplace Success in our spare time.

 

never mind, I edited id cause it's already been said.

 

Correct. Not a bash, but if you HAD read the register you would see that they say that they have found no need to extend greater regulation over existing truck driver training schools. There are suggested guidelines, such as PTDI that recommends a minimum of 104 hours classroom, 24 hours yard, and 20 hours road. This however, is a training standard that schools have the option to join or not to join. (Much like the the Better Business Bureau. They have standards, but just because you don't pay your dues doesn't mean that you don't meet those standards, just that you aren't recognized as such by that organization..)

As one poster noted, the STATE may have issues with things that schools are doing, but this is with the EDUCATION department (usually) not the Transportation department.

Terrapin, I have to say... that is really interesting that All State is registered. By any chance do you actually deliver any loads as part of your training? When I founded my school I looked into this issue and was told since I didn't haul anything I wasn't a motor carrier. Since I wasn't a motor carrier I wasn't regulated by the Department of Transportation. Since I wasn't regulated by DOT I didn't need (nor could I get) a DOT number. I use interstate highways, but because I do not transport freight or paying passengers in interstate commerce our school does not fall into the guidelines of the Federal Motor Carrier Safety Regulations.

HOWEVER! We are still considered commercial vehicles and therefore are required to comply with the safety regulations for commercial vehicles (i.e. being inspected every 6 months (PA law - not federal) and being in compliance if we are pulled over for a safety inspection.)

So again, to rehash... There are no Federally mandated rules pertaining to the number of hours. Log books are not required to be kept by schools (Unless in the strange case they are registered by DOT and then only if they travel more than 100 air miles and are otherwise subject to hours-of-service rules). There MAY be minimums required by individual state Departments of Education. In which case, these would be the ones to speak with if you feel that your school is trying to cheat you out of an education.

Whew. Sorry about being so long winded. This was just a topic that I went round and round with when I opened. No one could tell me the rules because I was an oddity. A commercial vehicle that did not transport goods in either inter or intra state commerce. I think driving schools, contractors/work vans, and maybe churches transporting members are about all that fit into this category.

Hope this helps!
Chris

 

While they may not be required to use log books the fact is they are using them and falsifying them . There is some type of fraud going on .
What needs to be known is if some state or federal agency requires the logs and audits them .
Sounds like a class action case an attorney would be interested in . Students aren't getting the number of training hours they paid for . More students would have to be willing to come forward with coplaints.

 

Federally mandated training will be a reality. It has been in the works for years now, and is in the current highway bill. Could be this year, maybe not. My state requires 148 hrs of training, and has a law requiring paid driver training to be licensed and overseen. Schools must adhere to the proposed federal guidelines for their curriculum. Schools are overseen/licensed/ audited by the DMV. Remember also that FMCSA has direct control over each states CDL programs. I posted the link to the proposed training rule earlier in this thread.

Lord North, don't you also have to comply with your state's HOS regulations? Most states have adopted the federal standards, or a slight variation of them. Not that it matters in training. This post is about a scam not HOS.

 

I have never heard of State Hours of Service. Only Federal. (Not to say that they don't exist... only that I have never heard of such a thing.) If we were considered a Motor Carrier (again, which we are not) FMCSA 395.1 (e) discusses the exemptions of Hours of Service, which we would fall under.

Our school voluntarily uses PTDI standards for our times... 104 Classroom, 24 Yard, 20 Road, but interestingly enough there was no "transportation" department interested in "claiming" us. Everyone that I talked to said we weren't covered under their rules. We are required to meet Department of Education requirements -- although they are more interested in total class hours. They didn't even care how many hours of driving I offered or how many students were in the class, as long as I met the total NUMBER of hours for the course.

My opinion here is that there is a bit of over-reaction. First off, has the gentleman in question spoken to the instructor or the head of the driving school. That alone may take care of the problem -- it certainly would if it were at my school. Next step, if that doesn't get you anywhere, talk to the Department of Education (or whoever licenses the school) not Transportation. If THAT doesn't work, consider a STATE representative or Senator. I just have to reiterate... This is not a FEDERAL issue.

Right now there are SO many schools (all "career schools", not just driving schools) that are under fire for charging a lot of money with no results at the end that it will not take much at all to light a fire under someone.

Those of you who are former military understand the process. It is called chain of command. You start at the bottom and work up, you don't go right to the top and start complaining.

Rick, what I am and have been telling you is that there IS NO state or federal agency that requires logs and audits them. There is no rule against someone "falsifying" a log book if they are not required to keep one in the first place. We do log exercises in class... Does that mean when we complete a log for an imagined trip and sign it that we are guilty of a crime? If you take a check out of your checkbook, fill it out for one million dollars, sign it, then tear it up and throw it away... are you guilty of check fraud? No, because you didn't use the check for anything that you were required to use the check for. The same as you didn't try to submit a log book that was incorrect, because there WAS NO ONE TO SUBMIT THE LOG BOOK TO!

That was the point that I made earlier in my post, and made again above... There is no state or federal agency (except in the very rare case of the school that has its authority) that requres schools to keep logs. Schools are not motor carriers. Schools do not (usually) have their drivers away from the school more than 12 hours at a time (FMCSR 395.1 (e) (1) (ii)).

Whether or not this is fraud rests with the decision of the body that licensed the schools - not the Department of Transportation or the Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration.


It is interesting that throughout this thread and many others that someone will cite reasons why something is the way it is. They will give examples to clearly show their point. But then someone always seems to come in and say, "Yes, but someone should find out if this is not true." If so, find it and show your supporting evidence (as Terrapin did). Otherwise you are simply offering an opinion, and everyone knows what their old gym teacher's saying was about opinions...

Be Safe.
Chris

 

So how did the FMCSA have authority to prosecute this school ? http://www.oig.dot.gov/library-item/5693

 

I just read from that link, and it looks like they were prosecuted for the above reasons...not false log books.

 

True , but they are not a carrier and apparently don't do interstate commerce . Those were given as reasons why the other school couldn't be prosecuted by FMCSA . My question was why was the FMCSA able to prosecute 5this school and not be able to prosecute others ?