How soon do I need to display DOT number?

Discussion in 'Trucking Industry Regulations' started by JWillinAZ, Aug 3, 2021.

  1. brian991219

    brian991219 Road Train Member

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    Sorry, the rules of this forum do not allow me to solcit customers, advertise or otherwise identify myself unless I want to get banned. Best I can do is give factual and accurate advice for you to start your own search.
     
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  3. brian991219

    brian991219 Road Train Member

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    That is partly true when using a CMV for personal conveyance. Being unladen no longer has any bearing on legal use of personal conveyance, but moving a vehicle for the advantage of the motor carrier does.

    The issue here is the OP purchased a commercial vehicle for use in their business and is transporting it home across state lines to be used in furtherance of commerce, an obvious advantage to the motor carrier. In reality, not some made up how would they ever prove it world, this is a business trip no different than moving your truck empty from one delivery to the next pickup.

    Also keep in mind as a highly regulated industry the burden is on the operator of the commercial vehicle to prove they are not on a buisness trip it is not the burden of the law enforcement officer to prove anything, the legal and valid presumption -supported by decades of case law and guidance from DOT- is a commercial vehicle is furtherance of a commercial enterprise unless the operator can prove otherwise.
     
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  4. zaroba

    zaroba Heavy Load Member

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    Not put to work yet, put "not for hire" signs on the doors, have insurance, and drive it home. I asked basically this same question here 2 years ago and it's what I was told.

    Hell, in PA you can't even register a CMV without a document from a company saying they are leasing it for use (including from your own authority). Until than it's treated as a personal vehicle, hence the "not for hire" signs.

    Drove my cab home in PA with no plates, just not for hire signs on the doors, the bill of sale, and temp insurance. Than drove it from PA to Chicago the same way when I leased on to a company, no issues with officers sitting on the road or driving passed me. Few months later when I quit to get my own authority I drove it back home to PA that same way again. Drove it like that to pick up the first trailer I bought too.

    After getting my authority at the start of last year I was finally able to register it and ran loads on a temp tag for almost 3 months due to covid delaying the process. Never had an issue with officers, just told them it was a temp tag and showed them.
     
  5. Tama Mai Hawaii Nei

    Tama Mai Hawaii Nei Light Load Member

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    Dont be out here giving false information. If it’s not for hire it doesn’t need anything but insurance and a temp tag
     
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  6. brian991219

    brian991219 Road Train Member

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    Sorry but that is a very common misconception and you are flat out wrong. That said, given your screen name mentions Hawaii it is fair to assume you may be operating under the slightly different applicability of the Federal Motor Carrier Safety Regulations that is applied to interstate operations within Hawaii, or just applying Hawaii traditions/local rules.

    So I will explain in excruciating detail for everyone since I am tired of this same question popping up almost daily, and this specific thread that won't stop with flat out incorrect, and potentially expensively bad, advice.

    Not for hire is simply slang/non-technical term used to describe the classification given to private motor carriers of property or passengers, meaning they own the freight (or are hauling their own workers in buses) and receive no compensation for it. There are only two classifications of motor carriers within the US when engaging in interstate commerce.

    For-hire (authorized or exempt commodities) -meaning they have the legal right to transport property or passengers for compensation

    Private (not for hire) -meaning they are not required to have valid motor carrier authority and therefore can only haul products they own themselves. These would be your grocery store chains that operate their own private fleet (not contracted carriers like JB Hunt pulling a grocery trailer) or even more non-traditional such as plumbers, carpenters, landscapers (who are a huge DOT enforcement target right now) and others.​

    Acting in furtherance of interstate commerce is what makes a vehicle a Federally regulated commercial vehicle (once the weight threshold of greater than 10,000 pounds gross vehicle weight rating) and supersedes any state exceptions that may otherwise have been applicable if only engaging in intrastate commerce. This includes moving unladen vehicles, even bare chassis, across state lines. My company supports this work daily, with myself still driving as time allows so we have direct experience with this as well as many other non-traditional motor carrier operations.

    Let's put this to rest once and for all. Please follow along;

    1. Look to the definition of driveaway/towaway operations, specifically sub (3), which is what the OP is doing (although this is not limited just to their initial question as you can see by the broad definition of driveaway), then look to points 2-5 below
    2. Look to the definition of interstate commerce to see that pretty much any business related movement is interstate commerce if a state or national border is involved.
    3. Look to the definition of commercial motor vehicle, again pretty much anything over 10,000 pounds gross weight rating when used for an interstate business purpose (NOTE, it doesn't say when empty or you don't feel like complying).
    4. Look to the definition of motor carrier and private motor carrier (which is one of the only places "not for hire" is ever mentioned in the FMCSRs). Again, neither say only when laden or making money, no, the rules apply at all times if it benefits a business in any way.
    5. Lastly, look to the specific definition of a truck and note where it says "designed and/or used for transportation of property".
    Now, if you don't want to look into the reasoning behind why an empty CMV, even when just purchased, is still a regulated vehicle how about just applying existing FMCSA guidance on the repair or servicing of a CMV across state lines? Yes, repair and servicing do not have specific definitions within 390.5, however there is mention of repair, servicing and conditioning in several places and that is taken by FMCSA as to include preparing new vehicle for service by the motor carrier, including the definition of driveaway/towaway operations..

    Question 6: Is transporting an empty CMV across State lines for purposes of repair and maintenance considered interstate commerce?

    Guidance: Yes. The FMCSRs are applicable to drivers and CMVs in interstate commerce which transport property. The property in this situation is the empty CMV.​

    So you can't claim any of these are modified (except to add bold or underline for highlights) here are the links to the definitions as found in 49 CFR Part 390 and the guidance copied above.

    eCFR :: 49 CFR Part 390 -- Federal Motor Carrier Safety Regulations; General
    Regulations Section

    Driveaway-towaway operation means an operation in which an empty or unladen motor vehicle with one or more sets of wheels on the surface of the roadway is being transported:

    (1) Between vehicle manufacturer's facilities;

    (2) Between a vehicle manufacturer and a dealership or purchaser;

    (3) Between a dealership, or other entity selling or leasing the vehicle, and a purchaser or lessee;

    (4) To a motor carrier's terminal or repair facility for the repair of disabling damage (as defined in § 390.5) following a crash; or

    (5) To a motor carrier's terminal or repair facility for repairs associated with the failure of a vehicle component or system; or

    (6) By means of a saddle-mount or tow-bar.

    Interstate commerce means trade, traffic, or transportation in the United States -

    (1) Between a place in a State and a place outside of such State (including a place outside of the United States);

    (2) Between two places in a State through another State or a place outside of the United States; or

    (3) Between two places in a State as part of trade, traffic, or transportation originating or terminating outside the State or the United States.

    Intrastate commerce means any trade, traffic, or transportation in any State which is not described in the term “interstate commerce.”

    Commercial motor vehicle means any self-propelled or towed motor vehicle used on a highway in interstate commerce to transport passengers or property when the vehicle -

    (1) Has a gross vehicle weight rating or gross combination weight rating, or gross vehicle weight or gross combination weight, of 4,536 kg (10,001 pounds) or more, whichever is greater; or

    (2) Is designed or used to transport more than 8 passengers (including the driver) for compensation; or

    (3) Is designed or used to transport more than 15 passengers, including the driver, and is not used to transport passengers for compensation; or

    (4) Is used in transporting material found by the Secretary of Transportation to be hazardous under 49 U.S.C. 5103 and transported in a quantity requiring placarding under regulations prescribed by the Secretary under 49 CFR, subtitle B, chapter I, subchapter C.

    For-hire motor carrier means a person engaged in the transportation of goods or passengers for compensation.

    Motor carrier means a for-hire motor carrier or a private motor carrier. The term includes a motor carrier's agents, officers and representatives as well as employees responsible for hiring, supervising, training, assigning, or dispatching of drivers and employees concerned with the installation, inspection, and maintenance of motor vehicle equipment and/or accessories. For purposes of subchapter B, this definition includes the terms employer, and exempt motor carrier.

    Private motor carrier means a person who provides transportation of property or passengers, by commercial motor vehicle, and is not a for-hire motor carrier.

    Truck means any self-propelled commercial motor vehicle except a truck tractor, designed and/or used for the transportation of property.
     
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  7. clausland

    clausland Road Train Member

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    One can be registered with FMCSA as both a for-hire & private carrier. We are a registered LLC farm and have both designations, along with two types of insurance. One of our trucks has apportioned plates and runs interstate for-hire. The other has agriculture (farm) plates, runs intrastate, and only carries our products, cannot be used for-hire, and is exempt from needing a MC#, IFTA, or HUT. We do need to display our name & DOT# on both.
     
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  8. clausland

    clausland Road Train Member

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    Although common sense needs application, I would think (hope) that the DOT man conducting an inspection would apply that to what is actually going on. Simply transporting a newly purchased vehicle to get from point A to Point B (paperwork to prove it) is not engaging in Interstate commerce in my book, and if I was a judge, I'd toss it in the interest of justice; however, arguing on the side of the road is not the place, the courtroom is.

    The way I see it, the bigger fish to fry are the guys out here hauling "for-hire", with their MCS-150 listing as "private carrier." They are anything but a private carrier, and have nothing that's required, including the most costly requirement, commercial insurance....
     
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  9. brian991219

    brian991219 Road Train Member

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    It would be nice if common sense was applied to most of our lives, sadly motor carrier enforcement can only go by the rules the bureaucrats have given them. Trust me it should not be this complex but it is. One of my most common questions comes from folks busted bringing home their new to them truck.

    I work with several dealership groups and most buyers get away with it, but why take the chance?
     
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  10. jamespmack

    jamespmack Road Train Member

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    Most all farmers around me are doing this. There is no enforcement on them.
     
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  11. jamespmack

    jamespmack Road Train Member

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    Yet no one has answered my question. What makes it a cmv?

    The 10,001 pound rule is only if your engaging in interstate commerce and operating as a cmv.

    My Semi full of the family traveling the USA not engaged in interstate commerce is not subject to fmsca. I am required to safely operate it with proper non trucking insurance.

    There could be issues with individual states that I am not knowledgeable in. But thats it.
     
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