Regs for Air Brakes under 26,000 GVWR

...except I didn't say a darned thing about a CDL. If the vehicle you are driving is under 26K, you can get by with a class C license. If the vehicle you are driving exceeds 26K, you'll need a class B license. If you're over 26K in a combination vehicle with a trailer over 10K, you need a class A license. Has nothing to do with "commercial" or "non-commercial", because you're required to have a valid license for the class of vehicle you're driving. IF that vehicle is a commercial vehicle, THEN you need a CDL. If it is NOT a commercial vehicle, then you do NOT need a CDL, but your license still needs to be valid for the class of vehicle you're driving.

License classes are weight-based, not endorsement-based.

 

Actually you did say a darned thing about a CDL. You weight references also indicated you were referencing CDLs. Additionally you were responding directly to a post concerning Class C CDL.

Class C is only for those driving commercial vehicles designed for 16 or more passengers or transporting placardable amounts of HM.

383.91 "(3) Small Vehicle (Group C)—Any single vehicle, or combination of vehicles, that meets neither the definition of Group A nor that of Group B as contained in this section, but that either is designed to transport 16 or more passengers including the driver, or is used in the transportation of hazardous materials as defined in §383.5."

The only reasons for a Class C are mentioned above and that is so endorsements can be added for Passenger and HM. You cannot get a Class C without one of those two endorsements.

If you believe Class C is strictly weight/GVWR based, you are mistaken. If think you are not you can quote the Reg, which does not exist (I already quoted the Reg) In other words you cannot get a Class C CDL without a P or H endorsement unless a state adds their own Reg for intrastate drivers.

A few states do have non commercial A,B,C. I can think of two, and that's not enough to be a rule of thumb for this discussion.

 

My wife has a class C non-commercial license. So does my dad. You can have a class A drivers license (non-commercial) if you drive a farm truck (non-commercial) because you're required to have a license for the size vehicle you are operating, even though you are NOT required to have a CDL. The FMCSR's only pertain to commercial motor vehicles, so you won't find any regulations in that little green book regarding NON-commercial operations. Hell, if I get the flatbed trailer I'm looking at ordering (bumper-pull with a pair of 8K axles), pulling it behind my F250 or the wife's 3/4-ton Suburban would require a class A license because the GCWR would exceed 26K with the trailer accounting for over 10K...but because it would be a privately owned, non-commercial use trailer it would NOT require a commercial license to pull it.

License classifications are strictly weight based. A commercial license is only required for participating in commerce, hauling people, or hazmat. You might want to do a little more research before you dig yourself any deeper into your argument, because you simply don't have a clue what you're talking about. License classifications are based strictly on weights, not endorsements. Passengers and hazmat require a CDL, but if you are NOT transporting people or hazmat and are NOT enngaged in commerce, you are still required to have the license for the GWR of the vehicle you are operating. It just doesn't have to be a CDL.

 

Like I stated a couple of states do the non commercial A, B, C licenses and I have no argument, but this discussion was concerning CDLs, and so was your initial response.

Before you suggest others to do research you may want to do some yourself. For that matter I already did it for you and posted the Reg number and a quote. If you choose not to believe the regs, that's cool I guess, but that doesn't change them. Again it's 383.91. Reference the Reg in your response and explain how it doesn't mean what it says.

 

You'd better learn how to read. The post I originally replied to was somebody attempting to make the claim that the main difference between the class C and class B CDL is the air brake endorsement. That claim was completely false, because if you test in a vehicle under 26K you will NOT receive a class B license and it doesn't matter if that under 26K vehicle had air brakes or not you will still not get a class B license. If you test in a vehicle above 26K, you WILL receive at least a class B license...class A if you're towing a trailer over 10K...and once again, it doesn't matter if the vehicle has air brakes or not if it is over 26K you will receive at least a class B license. I could take a 1-ton pickup to the DMV pulling a trailer that has a pair of 8K axles under it for my wife to test in. If she passed, she would get a class A drivers license with air brake and tractor trailer restrictions showing that she passed the test in a combination vehicle other than a tractor trailer which had no air brakes. For the last time, endorsements are NOT what determine the class of license you receive. That is 100% dependent upon the SIZE of the vehicle. Under 26K = class C. Single vehicle over 26K = class B. Combination vehicle over 26K = class A. The regulation you posted does absolutely nothing for your argument because (like everything else in this thread) you have no clue what you are reading. If a vehicle is not large enough to qualify as a class B or class A vehicle, you get the class C to be able to drive it. The regulation you posted covers small buses and hazmat. Class C also covers medium size wreckers, box trucks, and any number of other vehicles that don't quite reach the 26K threshold for a class B license.

But, since you want regulations, here you go:

Let's start out with a simple one...a definition:

§383.5 Commercial driver's license (CDL) means a license issued to an individual by a State or other jurisdiction of domicile, in accordance with the standards contained in this part, which authorizes the individual to operate a class of a commercial motor vehicle.

If you aren't going to operate a COMMERCIAL motor vehicle, you don't need a CDL.

So what IS a COMMERCIAL motor vehicle?

§383.5 Commercial motor vehicle (CMV) means a motor vehicle or combination of motor vehicles used in commerce to transport passengers or property if the motor vehicle is a—
(1) Combination Vehicle (Group A)—having a gross combination weight rating or gross combination weight of 11,794 kilograms or more (26,001 pounds or more), whichever is greater, inclusive of a towed unit(s) with a gross vehicle weight rating or gross vehicle weight of more than 4,536 kilograms (10,000 pounds), whichever is greater; or
(2) Heavy Straight Vehicle (Group B)—having a gross vehicle weight rating or gross vehicle weight of 11,794 or more kilograms (26,001 pounds or more), whichever is greater; or
(3) Small Vehicle (Group C) that does not meet Group A or B requirements but that either—
(i) Is designed to transport 16 or more passengers, including the driver; or
(ii) Is of any size and is used in the transportation of hazardous materials as defined in this section.

So what is this GVWR and GCWR, and how is it determined?

§383.5 Gross combination weight rating (GCWR) is the greater of:
(1) A value specified by the manufacturer of the power unit, if such value is displayed on the Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard (FMVSS) certification label required by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, or
(2) The sum of the gross vehicle weight ratings (GVWRs) or the gross vehicle weights (GVWs) of the power unit and the towed unit(s), or any combination thereof, that produces the highest value. Exception: The GCWR of the power unit will not be used to define a commercial motor vehicle when the power unit is not towing another vehicle.

§383.5 Gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR) means the value specified by the manufacturer as the loaded weight of a single vehicle.


Commercial motor vehicles are once again defined here:

§390.5 Commercial motor vehicle means any self-propelled or towed motor vehicle used on a highway in interstate commerce to transport passengers or property when the vehicle—
(1) Has a gross vehicle weight rating or gross combination weight rating, or gross vehicle weight or gross combination weight, of 4,536 kg (10,001 pounds) or more, whichever is greater; or
(2) Is designed or used to transport more than 8 passengers (including the driver) for compensation; or
(3) Is designed or used to transport more than 15 passengers, including the driver, and is not used to transport passengers for compensation; or
(4) Is used in transporting material found by the Secretary of Transportation to be hazardous under 49 U.S.C. 5103 and transported in a quantity requiring placarding under regulations prescribed by the Secretary under 49 CFR, subtitle B, chapter I, subchapter C.

Notice the theme there? In order to be considered a "commercial" motor vehicle, it MUST be used "in commerce". If you are crossing state lines, the definition tightens to include much smaller vehicles (even those NOT transporting people or hazmat). However, if you are NOT engaged in commerce, it does NOT meet the definition for a "commercial" motor vehicle under any definition found in the regulations.

§383.5 Non-CMV means a motor vehicle or combination of motor vehicles not defined by the term “commercial motor vehicle (CMV)” in this section.

And to drive a non-cmv, you don't need a CDL.

§383.5 Non-CDL means any other type of motor vehicle license, such as an automobile driver's license, a chauffeur's license, or a motorcycle license.

Once again, the CLASS of license is based upon vehicle weight and nothing else. The ENDORSEMENTS you need are based upon what you will be carrying and how it will be carried. You're not going to get a class B license in a box truck with a 25K GVWR even if it has air brakes. You're not going to get a class C license in a 28K box truck even if it has hydraulic brakes. The license class is determined 100% by the weight rating of the vehicle or combination.

 

So you posted and did not read? “383.5 (3) Small Vehicle (Group C) that does not meet Group A or B requirements but that either—
(i) Is designed to transport 16 or more passengers, including the driver; or
(ii) Is of any size and is used in the transportation of hazardous materials as defined in this section.”
Is there a Reg stating this is not true for a Class C? Reference it!

Totally agree

Yep

No problem. As long as trailer GVWR is 10001 or more and GCWR is 26001 or more it’s an A and whatever restrictions there will apply.

Not Class C as per the Reg you yourself posted. C basically is 26,000 and under and is designed to transport 16 or more passengers, including the driver; or of any size and is used in the transportation of hazardous materials as defined in this section. Again if you have a Reg that does not include 16 passengers and Hazmat, please produce it.

Absolutely not true. The definition of Class C is plain and simple. You posted it, do you not even believe what you posted or did you not read it before posting?

It covers Class C, as did what you posted, but you either did not read or cannot comprehend.
As far as small busses and HazMat, that’s what Class C is for. Show me otherwise. Post a Reg with a definition not including 16 Passenger or Hazmat.

OK so, Class C Covers anything not covered in Class A or B, so that puts it 26000 GVWR or less,“but” that “either” is designed to transport 16 or more passengers, including the driver; or of any size and is used in the transportation of hazardous materials as defined in this section. Class C is not just weight based, but also 16 Passenger or Hazmat. Note it doesn’t say “or” is 16 Pass or hazmat but rather that “either” is 16 pass or Hazmat. Is there another definition of Class C that I am not aware of? Please post it or reference it.

I’m aware of the definition of a CMV, but you are mistakenly under the belief that a CDL is required to drive all CMVs. Not so. If it’s 26,000 or less and doesn’t fall under the definition above for class C, it’s not required.

To be more accurate license class is based on GVWR and GCWR, but in the case of a Class C it’s also based on that it is designed to transport 16 or more passengers, including the driver; or of any size and is used in the transportation of hazardous materials as defined in this section.

 

Ok, so using your logic if I were to pack a couple sticks of dynamite (1.1 explosives, placard ANY quantity) into each saddlebag on my motorcycle, that it magically becomes a group C vehicle and that you'd be OK to ride it so long as you had at least a class C CDL with the hazmat endorsement?

Fact is, if you didn't have a motorcycle classification on your license, you'd be driving out of class despite the fact that the regulation you keep referencing would now classify that hazmat hauling motorcycle as a group C vehicle.

Notice your favorite regulation has ZERO to do with license classification, only vehicle groups. You cannot drive a group B vehicle with a class C license. You can drive a group C vehicle with a class B license. As I've been trying to explain (and thus far has continued to go over your head), license classification is based entirely on vehicle weights. Endorsements are based entirely on what or how you are able to carry things on the vehicle. CDL's are only necessary for commercial motor vehicles. Whether or not a vehicle is defined as a commercial motor vehicle depends upon its use. If you're using it for commercial purposes, it is a commercial motor vehicle. Hell, even an 8-passenger van or SUV is considered a CMV IF it is driven for compensation across state lines, but you don't even need a class C license for that. A class D license (good up to 16K) is all you'd need here in Illinois. Move up to something with a GVWR above 16K but below 26K and you need to get a class C license. Over 26K single vehicle and you need a class B. Hook up a trailer to that over 10K and now you need a class A. GVWR and GCWR are the ONLY things that matter for license classification. Hell, look on the back of ANY driver's license and it'll explain the same thing relating to what that individual is permitted to drive. Classification is vehicle weight rating. Endorsements cover things like hazmat, tanker, doubles & triples, and passengers. Vehicle groups (which you keep referring to) are NOT the same as license classifications, other than the similar "a", "b", and "c" designations. Just because a vehicle is a group c vehicle does NOT mean you need a class C license to operate it...or as in the case of a motorcycle carrying a load requiring placards...that you're legal to operate it with your class C license. Apples and oranges.

Not sure how much simpler I can break that down for you, so if you're still having difficulty wrapping your head around the fact that you're not even remotely accurate in your assertions, there really isn't much more I can do. Read the little book in its entirety, not just a snippet here or there that ALMOST applies if you squint really hard and hold your mouth just right while applying a hardy dose of imagination.

 

Logic has little to do with this, it’s the Regs. To ask such a silly question!
You posted the definition of a CMV earlier under 390.5. In part it states that a “Commercial motor vehiclemeans any self-propelled or towed motor vehicle”. The question you posed shows you have no knowledge of what a motor vehicle is. Again in part 390.5: “Motor vehiclemeans any vehicle, machine, tractor, trailer, or semitrailer propelled or drawn by mechanical power and used upon the highways in the transportation of passengers or property.”

Notice motorcycle isn’t mentioned as a motor vehicle, therefore cannot be a CMV?

This shows silly logic, not mine.

Sure you can, with the appropriate endorsement. Remember you are the one who just referenced the Reg referencing vehicle groups. BTW, 390.5 that I keep referencing was your posting, not mine. I earlier referenced 383.91 which is in Part 383 titled in part “Commercial Driver’s License Standards” and the vehicle groups used for CDL purposes. It’s identical to the groups in 390.5 that you posted.

Because it’s in correct concerning Class C, and as yet you have been unable to produce a Reg that states a Class C isn’t just for 16 Passenger or more or HazMat, even after your meticulous study.

That’s correct and it’s referred to as a non-CDL Commercial driver.

The simplest way would produce a Reg that does not include 16 passenger and Hazmat as being required for the Class C CDL.
But, remember I mentioned in a previous post that a couple of states had basically made a few adjustments so to speak? Now that you mentioned you are from Illinois, this kind of clears the water. Illinois is one of those states; they have their own Class C between 16001 and 26001. It works interstate without the Hazmat or Passenger endorsements because no CDL is needed for that GVWR range unless 16 passenger or Hazmat are involved. I wish you had mentioned Illinois earlier. Federally and in most states, what I have been saying is correct.

 

So now you are claiming that a motorcycle does not meet the definition of "ANY self-propelled motor vehicle" or that it cannot be used to transport people or property? You're a riot!

Not only are motorcycles self-propelled motor driven vehicles, but I've hauled quite a bit of "property" on the back of my motorcycles over the years...including the table I made in woodshop back in high school. Countless trips back and forth to college with the saddle bags stuffed full, guitar strapped across the back seat, and a laundry basket on top of the guitar case. Sure, that was all personal "property"...but I could have just as easily been hauling the same sort of "property" for others and for compensation. Hell, a courier might use a motorcycle to navigate busy city traffic and make use of the ease of which they can be parked...carrying property for hire on a motorcycle. On that old show (don't know if it's even still on the air) about moonshiners, there was a guy that pulled a trailer behind his motorcycle loaded with the illegal liquor. Granted, that wasn't exactly above board from the start, as the substance he was hauling was illegal to haul in ANY vehicle, but the point is it CAN be done. My parents have a pop-up camper trailer they pull behind their Goldwing, and they can pack quite a bit of property in it. Wouldn't be hard to be an expediter moving small quantities of potentially dangerous substances packed into the trailer instead. So yes, a motorcycle absolutely qualifies as "ANY motor vehicle" and if it is being used to transport certain hazmat substances which are required to be placarded at ANY quantity, it would absolutely fall under the strict definitions of a group C as it is, IN YOUR WORDS:

Sure, you aren't going to load 16 people onto one or 1000+ pounds or 100+ gallons of some substances that would trigger the need to placard, but when the regs clearly state that "ANY quantity" of certain substances needs to be placarded, you could easily turn a motorcycle into a group C vehicle IF you are hauling any of those substances.

And why would I quote the same reg you posted when there are so many others to choose from? It would be rather redundant, don't you think? You know what you posted...I'm illustrating the point that what you posted is only a VERY small piece of the puzzle.

And once again, IT DOESN'T MATTER HOW BIG, BOLD, ITALICS, UNDERLINED, OR ANY OTHER WAY YOU MIGHT HIGHLIGHT SOMETHING, it still doesn't change the fact that you're wrong. You will NEVER be able to pass a road test at the DMV in a vehicle with a GVWR below 26K and receive a class B CDL. Below 26K gets you a class C. It doesn't matter if that vehicle you took the road test in has air brakes, hauls hazmat, or whatever else it may have going for it the fact of the matter is that it is below 26K and is NOT going to get you a class B license. If you are driving a vehicle over 26K GVWR and only have a class C license, IT DOESN'T MATTER what endorsements you may or may not have on that class C license, you are driving out of class because you need a class B license when your GVWR exceeds 26K. Funny thing is, you wouldn't be arguing the point you made in bold letters if you had continued reading §393.91 just a little bit farther down in section (c) which describes EXACTLY what I've been trying to explain to you. Your license allows you to drive a smaller vehicle than what your license specifies, not a larger one....and no amount of endorsements changes that fact. It doesn't matter what state you go to, you will not be able to drive a group B vehicle with a class C license.

But hey, here's another reg for you:

§383.153 Information on the CLP and CDL documents and applications.

(a) Commercial Driver's License. All CDLs must contain all of the following information:

(1) The prominent statement that the license is a “Commercial Driver's License” or “CDL,” except as specified in paragraph (c) of this section.

(2) The full name, signature, and mailing or residential address in the licensing State of the person to whom such license is issued.

(3) Physical and other information to identify and describe such person including date of birth (month, day, and year), sex, and height.

(4) Color photograph, digitized color image, or black and white laser engraved photograph of the driver. The State may issue a temporary CDL without a photo or image, if it is valid for no more than 60 days.

(5) The driver's State license number.

(6) The name of the State which issued the license.

(7) The date of issuance and the date of expiration of the license.

(8) The group or groups of commercial motor vehicle(s) that the driver is authorized to operate, indicated as follows:

(i) A for Combination Vehicle;

(ii) B for Heavy Straight Vehicle; and

(iii) C for Small Vehicle.

(9) The endorsement(s) for which the driver has qualified, if any, indicated as follows:

(i) T for double/triple trailers;

(ii) P for passenger;

(iii) N for tank vehicle;

(iv) H for hazardous materials;

(v) X for a combination of tank vehicle and hazardous materials endorsements;

(vi) S for school bus; and

(vii) At the discretion of the State, additional codes for additional groupings of endorsements, as long as each such discretionary code is fully explained on the front or back of the CDL document.

(10) The restriction(s) placed on the driver from operating certain equipment or vehicles, if any, indicated as follows:

(i) L for No Air brake equipped CMV;

(ii) Z for No Full air brake equipped CMV;

(iii) E for No Manual transmission equipped CMV;

(iv) O for No Tractor-trailer CMV;

(v) M for No Class A passenger vehicle;

(vi) N for No Class A and B passenger vehicle;

(vii) K for Intrastate only;

(viii) V for medical variance; and

(ix) At the discretion of the State, additional codes for additional restrictions, as long as each such restriction code is fully explained on the front or back of the CDL document.



Seems to me that the "IF ANY" in (9) implies that the CDL for the classifications found in (8) signifies that a CDLfor any of those classifications may be issued with or without such endorsements, as the regulation does not say anything about class C requiring any such endorsement.

Like I've been saying, there are more to the regs than the 1 small part of 1 small section of 1 small piece of a regulation upon which you are basing your entire false assumption. I've quoted several different regs proving you wrong, and you keep going back to that one that you have to really stretch to reach where you're trying to go with it...and no matter how many times you make the claim, it doesn't get any less wrong.

 

Just two things. First the bold thing was a product of moving it from Polaris to post it and for whatever reason it only went to bold when I pasted it and I could not get it changed. It was not an attempt to make any bold point.

Second, if I have a truck with a GVWR of 20,000 and a trailer of 10,000 GVWR do I need a CDL? If so which class?