Series 60 dual power (370/430 or 430/470) -- how does it work?

Discussion in 'Trucks [ Eighteen Wheelers ]' started by double yellow, May 12, 2015.

  1. allan5oh

    allan5oh Road Train Member

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    They aren't.

    There's your clue. Does it make a difference using the 1-2-3 switch? For example going from 2 to 3, do you notice a difference? If not it's likely one of your jakes is going out, or one of the wires. If there is a difference it could be the wastegate on your turbo.

    Jakes are simple mechanical devices. They're either on or off. Nothing in the ECM changes that. The ECM does not control the wastegate on a 2000 detroit either. It's not in the programming.

    This one could be an ECM setting, but I'm not sure. I have the program for detroit.

    Is this with the cruise on or off?

    When was the last time you went for an overhead?
     
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  3. dannythetrucker

    dannythetrucker Road Train Member

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    there are 21 different settings in the ECM which change that.
    jake settings.PNG
     
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  4. double yellow

    double yellow Road Train Member

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    There is no medium, just off low and high. But yes, there is a definite change in braking power:


    Low w/ wastegate not fully closed: ~2-3psi (book says ~6psi)
    Low w/ wastegate fully closed (above 35mph): 4 psi

    High w/ wastegate not fully closed: 8-9psi (book says ~18 psi)
    High w/ wastegate fully closed (above 35mph): ~12-14 psi

    The diagnostic manual for my retrofit kit: http://pacbrake.com/wp-content/uploads/L5183.pdf


    Perhaps it has nothing to do with the programming -- perhaps my wastegate just sticks a little open sometimes. But I'm almost positive it is the wastegate based on the reduced noise & increased boost both under acceleration and engine braking.

    Unlikely -- this is a fresh install of a retrofit kit. The installation has been checked by 3 different shops.

    What else would cause the wastegate to suddenly close? ischeeple seems to have a similar feature... I'm thinking along the lines of a "torque limiting" feature programmed into the ddec to prevent company drivers from twisting driveshafts and thrashing u-joints by using full power in lower gears...

    So maybe it isn't technically an "engine brake" parameter, but it most certainly has an effect on its performance.



    Cruise on.

    Overhead was set when they installed the engine brake about 10,000 miles ago. Engine has run better than ever since it was done -- now over 9 mpg:

    mpg.png
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2015
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  5. icsheeple

    icsheeple Trailing the Herd

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    I took a 700 mile dispatch today. Wasn't really worried about fuel mileage, obviously. Figured I could push the motor and experiment since I wasn't concerned about fuel today.

    So on a good pull I dropped it to 7 low and got over 400 horsepower at 1800 rpm I think, wasn't really watching the tac. You gotta stay above 1500 rpm to open up those extra ponies from my experience today.
     
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  6. allan5oh

    allan5oh Road Train Member

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    And do any of these affect the strength of the brake? No they do not. Those setttings affect when the jake comes on, not how strong it is.

    The settings for cruise on jake performance can be changed in diagnostic link, but it still seems like there's other issues. The wastegate should only open around 28 psi IIRC.

    The fact that the jake was installed as a retrofit does change things however. Did the truck have a jake before?

    There is torque limiting in the detroit software, but I'm unsure if it affects the jake because the jake is always weaker than engine power.
     
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  7. allan5oh

    allan5oh Road Train Member

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    Also do you have an aftermarket turbo on this thing.
     
  8. double yellow

    double yellow Road Train Member

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    Appears to be a factory turbo. It is a wastegated Garrett
    Yeah my best guess is that the engine brake is working as it is supposed to, but that there is some additional exhaust braking that is not consistent.
    No, it was your base model MK.
     
  9. allan5oh

    allan5oh Road Train Member

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    there's two wires, but three jake settings. setting 1 is 2 cylinders, setting 2 is 4 cylinders and both together is 6. There should be a 1-2-3 switch and an on switch. The ECM sees two jake brake wires from your dash switches. 1-0 is setting 1, 0-1 is setting 2 1-1 is setting 3.

    Here is all the ECM settings I could find in DCT. DCT is not DDDL, it is what is actually used to program the ECM. DDDL is used for diagnostics and changing some settings such as rating.

    [​IMG]

    note: Did they flash the ECM or just change the power setting? Big difference here. If they just changed the rating in DDDL there is zero difference in jake programming. The majority of the DDC programming is used in a shared folder, when you change the rating in DDDL it only changes a few tables, none related to jake performance. But if they flashed the ECM that changes everything.

    So let's go through every jake related setting that I think is relevant:

    Digital inputs - these are the wires going from your dash to your ECM that tells the ECM you want jakes.

    jake_brake_min_mph - This might be set at 35 incorrectly. I see no reason it shouldn't be 0. Keep in mind this is on/off, not strength of the jake.

    Jake_hi_delta_mph
    Jake_lo_delta_mph
    Jake_med_delta_mph

    These could all be related to the cruise issue you were talking about. These are only used with cruise control. As you can see on mine, low comes in at 3 mph above cruise, med at 4 mph above cruise, and hi at 5 mph above cruise.

    I do not think any of the other settings should affect you. I will have a look at DDDL later today on my truck (you have to be hooked up) but the reality is everything in DDDL can be changed with DCT, it's just more user friendly.
     
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  10. allan5oh

    allan5oh Road Train Member

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    Also you can run down the highway with DDDL attached and see what the ECM is doing. You can also see which switches are activated.
     
  11. double yellow

    double yellow Road Train Member

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    I have 2 switches. On/Off and Off/Low/High

    This is a pacbrake retrofit kit, not a Jacobs brand, though the basics should be the same. This may be why the cruise control engine brake settings are wonky, but that is not really a concern for me (rarely use cruise). I'd just like to know why they are so much stronger at times (like over 35) then others.
    I don't have either, but Danny's about got me convinced to try his link.
    Yes, after having them installed I had to go to Detroit to get the ecm flashed. They apparently could not just turn on a setting, they had to reprogram the ecm ($750 + $250 labor -- I'm in the wrong business).
    The switches function correctly. Off is off, low is low, high is high.
    The engine brake will activate if you rev and release at idle -- there is no minimum speed to activate.
    Yeah, this setting could probably stand to be tweaked due to pacbrake vs jacobs, but it isn't a real concern for me.
    What about torque limiting? What else could cause you to go from pulling a hill at say 1400rpm, full throttle, 26psi, and 300 horsepower and after a minute or two having a sudden exhaust tone change, an extra 3psi boost, and an extra 50 horsepower?

    That same thing appears to be the cause of the better engine braking.

    If this was something mechanical like a sticky wastegate, why would it unstick only above 35mph? I guess I could try replacing the actuator, but I kinda hate to just throw parts at a problem.
     
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