WHY DO the HAMS always take over cb posts ?

Correct in response to the above post. The other post is IN-correct in that the interstate highway system was not developed in its entirety for the exclusive use of the military. It was also recognized by the Administration of the time, and those following, that such a highway system would enhance the convenience of the motoring public as well increase the flow of goods and services across the land. There was never any intention of restricting cars from the Interstate System.

Radio is entirely different subject and problem in that its logistics and needs are totally different. NO-body said hams "own" radio spectrum, BUT they, and all other users of radio DO "own" their own frequencies in a sense that they have been given PERMISSION by virtue of licensure issued by the Federal Government, in EFFECT being granted a sort of "ownership" by occupying, again by PERMISSION (LICENSE) frequencies designated by government(s) for their exclusive USE. Some, however, are shared with military and government authorities with primary or secondary occupancy being determined by specific rule. For a "test" of this "ownership" or the effective ownership or amateur spectrum granted by license, let a licensed amateur be talking on 28.395 USB. Then let's have an unlicensed interloper start yapping over the top of the ham. SEE WHO GETS THE $18,000 FINE!!! It WON'T be the ham!

There is a persistent CB myth that FCC does NOTHING about CB or the sellers of illegal equipment. Not so. Yes. It would take a whole army of agents to fully enforce the minions of CB radio---this curious group of people who cause more trouble with respect to radio than ALL other radio services combined. There is an average of 9 violations within the ranks of licensed amateurs per month, often less than that, out of an average of 600,000 licensed hams. Just NINE!!!!!!! If an army of agents were hired, CB radio was aggressively enforced, the numbers of FINES and seizures against CBers/truckers would FAR exceed the numbers of "busts" against all other radio services and users COMBINED!!! And some of us wish this would happen, and are working to persuade FCC and Congress to increase enforcements against radio violators of all kinds. At THIS time, there ARE actions against CB operators, so the Feds ARE doing something, just not enough. That may change. Tired of those solicitations for heartburn hotels and CB repairs? Look at this one:

Before the Federal Communications Commission
Washington, D.C. 20554
In the Matter of ) ) Thomas Andrew Leach )
File No. EB-09-DT-0008 d.b.a Radio Connection L.L.C. )
Licensee of Citizens Band Radio Service Station )
NOV No. V200932360008
Jackson, Michigan ) ) ) )
NOTICE OF VIOLATION Released: April 07, 2009
By the District Director,
Detroit Office, Northeast Region,
Enforcement Bureau:
1. This is a Notice of Violation ("Notice") issued pursuant to Section 1.89 of the Commission's Rules to Thomas Andrew Leach, d.b.a Radio Connection L.L.C., licensee of a Citizens Band ("CB") Radio Service station in Jackson, Michigan.
2. On March 6, 2009, agents of the Commission's Detroit Office monitored and inspected your CB radio station located at 6031 Ann Arbor Road, Jackson, MI, and found the following violation: 47 C.F.R. S: 95.413: "(CB Rule 13) What communications are prohibited? (a) You must not use a CB station... (5) To advertise or solicit the sale of any goods or services...
Agents from this office determined that you were using your CB station to advertise antenna and radio repairs on CB channel 19.
3. Pursuant to Section 308(b) of the Communications Act of 1934, as amended, and Section 1.89 of the Commission's Rules, Thomas Andrew Leach, must submit a written statement concerning this matter within twenty (20) days of release of this Notice. The response must fully explain each violation, must contain a statement of the specific action taken to correct each violation and preclude recurrence, and should include a time line for completion of pending corrective action. The response must be complete in itself and signed by you. All replies and documentation sent in response to this Notice should be marked with the File No. and NOV No. specified above, and mailed to the following address:
Federal Communications Commission
Detroit Office
24897 Hathaway Street
Farmington Hills, MI 48335
4. This Notice shall be sent to Thomas Andrew Leach, d.b.a. Radio Connection L.L.C., at his address of record.
5. The Privacy Act of 1974 requires that we advise you that the Commission will use all relevant material information before it, including any information disclosed in your reply, to determine what, if any, enforcement action is required to ensure compliance. Any false statement made knowingly and willfully in reply to this Notice is punishable by fine or imprisonment under Title 18 of the U.S. Code.
FEDERAL COMMUNICATIONS COMMISSION
James Bridgewater District Director Detroit
District Office
Northeast Region Enforcement Bureau
47 C.F.R. S: 1.89. 47 C.F.R. S: 95.413. 47 U.S.C. S: 308(b). P.L. 93-579, 5 U.S.C. S: 552a(e)(3). 18 U.S.C. S: 1001 et seq.

*********************************************************
AND:

Before the Federal Communications Commission
Washington, D.C. 20554
In the Matter of ) ) File No. EB-09-DT-0043
Charles Leach ) d.b.a. Radio Connection L.L.C ) ) Citation No. C200932360001
Jackson, MI )
CITATION Released: April 9, 2009
By the District Director, Detroit Office, Northeast Region,
Enforcement Bureau:
1. This is an official Citation issued pursuant to Section 503(b)(5) of the Communications Act of 1934, as amended ("Act"), to Charles Leach d.b.a. Radio Connection L.L.C. ("Radio Connection") for violation of Section 302(b) of the Act, and Section 2.803(a)(1), of the Commission's Rules ("Rules").
2. Investigation by the Enforcement Bureau's Detroit Office revealed that, on March 6, 2009, Radio Connection offered for sale the following non-certified Citizens Band ("CB") transceiver at its store in Jackson, Michigan: General Lee Deluxe AM/FM amateur Transceiver. According to the Commission's records, this device has not received an FCC equipment authorization, which is required for Citizens Band transmitters marketed in the United States.
3. Section 302(b) of the Act provides that "No person shall manufacture, import, sell, offer for sale, or ship devices or home electronic equipment and systems, or use devices, which fail to comply with regulations promulgated pursuant to this section." Section 2.803(a)(1) of the Rules provides that "... no person shall sell or lease, or offer for sale or lease (including advertising for sale or lease), or import, ship or distribute for the purpose of selling or leasing or offering for sale or lease, any radio frequency device unless: (1) In the case of a device subject to certification, such device has been authorized by the Commission in accordance with the rules in this chapter and is properly identified and labeled...." Radio Connection's offering for sale the transceiver listed in paragraph 2 violates both sections.
4. Although Radio Connection L.L.C. marketed the device listed in paragraph 2 as an amateur 10 meter radio, the Commission has evaluated devices similar to the General Lee Deluxe AM/FM Amateur Transceiver and has concluded they fall within the definition of a CB transmitter because they can easily be configured to operate on CB frequencies. Additionally, we note that dual use CB and amateur radios of the kind at issue here may not be certificated under the Rules.
5. Violations of the Act or the Rules may subject the violator to substantial monetary forfeitures, seizure of equipment through in rem forfeiture action, and criminal sanctions including imprisonment.
6. Radio Connection may request a personal interview at the closest FCC Office, which is
Federal Communications Commission,
24897 Hathaway Street,
Farmington Hills, Michigan 48335-1552.

You may contact this office by telephone, (XXX) XXXX-XXXXto schedule this interview, which must take place within 14 days of the Citation. Radio Connection may also submit a written statement to the above address within 14 days of the date of this Citation. Any written statement should specify what actions have been taken to correct the violations outlined above. Please reference case number EB-09-DT-0043 when corresponding with the Commission.

7. Any statement or information provided by you may be used by the Commission to determine if further enforcement action is required. Any knowingly or willfully false statement made in reply to this Citation is punishable by fine or imprisonment.
8. IT IS ORDERED that copies of this Citation shall be sent by Fist Class U.S. Mail and Certified Mail, Return Receipt Requested to Charles Leach at his address of record, and Radio Connection L.L.C. at its address of record.
FEDERAL COMMUNICATIONS COMMISSION
James A. Bridgewater District Director
Detroit Office Northeast Region Enforcement Bureau

47 U.S.C. S: 503(b)(5) 47 U.S.C. S: 302a(b) 47 C.F.R. S: 2.803(a)(1) See Letter from Christopher Wright, General Counsel, FCC to John Atwood, Chief Intellectual Property Rights, US Customs Service, 14 FCC Rcd 7797 (OGC, 1999). See also definition of CB transmitter, 47 C.F.R. S: 95.603(b) ("transmitter that operates or is intended to operate at a station authorized for the CB service"). 47 C.F.R. 95.655(a); see also Amendment of Part 95, Subpart E, Technical Regulations in the Personal RadioService Rules, Order, 3 FCC Rcd 5032 (1988). This clarification was added to explicitly foreclose the possibility of certification of dual use CB and amateur radios, see id., and thereby deter use by CB operators of frequencies allocated for amateur radio use. See 47 C.F.R. S: 1.80(b)(3). See 47 U.S.C. S:S: 401, 501, 503, 510. 47 U.S.C. S: 503(b)(5). See Privacy Act of 1974, 5 U.S.C. S: 552(e)(3). See 18 U.S.C. S: 1001 et seq. Federal Communications Commission
********************************************************
Thus, the fight goes on.

As to "getting the 10 Meter band for the 'chicken band", dream on!!!!!! Ten Meters is an INTERNATIONAL BAND ASSIGNED BY THE WORLD RADIO CONFERENCE AND ITU, by treaty which the USA has signed and endorsed. CB radio will never get ONE SINGLE additional channel and you can take that to the bank!!!!!! Why? Because 11 Meter CB radio has been passed over by cellphones, computers, internet and email. CB RADIOS ARE AN OUTDATED, ARCHAIC, ALMOST USELESS
HOLDOVER IN SO FAR AS RELIABLE COMMUNICATIONS IS CONCERNED. IT IS A VICTIM OF TECHNOLOGY! Don't believe it? Look at a CB radio from 1968. It has 23 channels (later increased to 40 due to the volume of users in the 70's), LOOKS about the same as it does in 2009. Other radios---including amateur radios----- have FAR outstripped the old CB in features and capabilities. The only "improvements" in CB radios have been mostly illegal ones in a desperate attempt to make the CB something worth the effort. Why, a CB radio with a huge "leenyar" won't even out-talk (distance-wise) a 2 -watt handi talkie (2 meter) that will fit in a shirt pocket!!!!!! It's called "technology"--much of which was (get this) developed by hams!!!!!

The argument CB vs ham radio will go on with insults and "fights" over the 'web. While the outlaw CB crowd becries the hams with words like "elitist", "snitches", or "crybaby", and the hams mock the CB myths of coax length and "SWR'sssssssssssss(there ain't but ONE 'swr' in a feedline, folks) and "bird watts", did you ever stop to wonder WHY the hams feel the way THEY do? Did you ever stop to consider the issues that make the hams, in YOUR estimation, "elitists" (they are NOT)? Well, it's about right and wrong. Law and order vs the outlaw. A THIEF stealing something from others, Like I said, "A thief is a thief is a thief, is a thief"!!! NO matter what it is he is filching be it money or radio frequencies. We can argue semantics forever, but whether you believe the hams "own" their spectrum, the police "own" their frequencies, or the rescue squad "owns" theirs, or NOT (we already explained that frequencies are not actually "owned" by the users,) the effect is the same because there is a license or permission to occupy them and no matter WHAT excuse you use for your illegal '10 Meter' radio, no matter WHAT excuse you use for transmitting ON the 10 Meter band, YOU ARE ACTUALLY A CRIMINAL TO THE DEGREE THAT APPLIES IN WHATEVER SCALE MIGHT BE USED TO JUDGE YOU. THAT MAY BE A MATTER OF OPINION (USING A SCALE OF HOW YOU MIGHT CONSIDER SPEEDING, RECKLESS DRIVING, OR OTHER OFFENSES). There it becomes a matter of opinion to the ham who discovers a trucker yapping on 28 MHZ, but also a matter of LAW(just like other offenses) since the law says the unlicensed person may NOT DO THAT! So that ham's opinion become VERY low of the driver he hears yakking away on 28.085 where he is not supposed to be. So, IF he tracks down the violator, IF he turns him in, he is THEN an "elitist", a "crybaby", a "stuck-up" ham because he won't tolerate the lawbreaker any more than he would if he found a burgler in his house? It doesn't work that way!

Gadfly

 

Well, some of those exports and big amps splatter all over them.

 

Well that all depends on who opened up the radio and did their so called magic to it. Take a SWP export from Radio Active Radios and you will find a radio that splatters for miles above and below, add an amp behind it and you will see the splatter increase, but take something done by a proper shop and the splatter is gone.


As for Gadfly, LOL. Millions and millions of CB users and you say that CB radio is basically dead. Think about it a bit. How many trucks are on the road in just the United States? Want to make any bets on how many of them trucks have a CB in them and are being used?

Face it, the number of CB users in one day dwarfs the number of Ham users on the air in a week.

Like I said, your chances are better at winning the lottery then getting in trouble with the FCC for using an export radio on 11 meters. Heck with how dead 10 meters is, I highly doubt you will get introuble there either.


Oh and the only reason why the CB frequency has not expanded is because we have not tried to get it expended. Get the masses of CB users together and it will happen and the small ham population will be up in arms for it but unable to do anything about it other then cry.

 

Yeah, I have heard all about RAR. Some good, most bad.

 

Once again, you are not understanding how it works.

1. There ARE NO "empty" frequencies to be assigned!
2. The idea of a "freeband" is another CB myth!
3. Even if the FCC wanted to allocate more so-called "channels" to CB,
there is a little problem! It is NOT "theirs" to reassign! IOW, they
COULDN'T allocate "them thar channels" to CB if they WANTED to!

4. There is a little-known agency within the United States called Nation-
al Telecommunications & Information Authority/Agency (NTIA) that
totally TRUMPS FCC! IOW, THEY can tell FCC where to get off--
and sometimes DO!! And FCC has to bow down to THEM, acquiesce to
THEM!

5. Ergo, those coveted "channels" are assigned to other military and gov-
ernment agencies, and it doesn't matter whether CBers think they are
empty or not: They AIN'T gonna give 'em up.

Now. Once again. The 10 Meter band is an INTERNATIONALLY ALLOCATED BAND AND ITS USE HAS BEEN DECIDED BY THE WORLD RADO CONFERENCE OR, IF YOU WISH TO GET MORE TECHNICAL, THE iNTERNATIONAL TELECOMMUNICATIONS UNION. This world group meets every so many years to hash out how spectrum will be used AND to
iron out grievances between nations. For example, at one of the last conferences, the 7 MHZ band, or the 40 Meter band. used to be filled with international broadcast stations, and was used by the amateur operators on a shared basis. This problem was presented by the representives of the worldwide radio amateur groups as said meeting(s) and, slowly, the shortwave broadcasters were moved OUT of the 40 Meter band. Now, for the most part, the 40 meter band can be used by worldwide hams without
hindrance. And such is the case for other bands as well--such as for 10 Meters. Nations sign onto these agreements and telecommunications treaties and agree (or sometime NOT if they DON'T agree) to abide by the
tenets of said treaties. In the case of 10 Meters, the United States has LONG AGO signed onto the agreements concerning the 10 Meter band along with all the other nations in our Telecommunications Region. That means that 10 meters is "safe" for the foreseeable future and, if anything,
a continued problem with interlopers with respect to 10 Meters would bring protests, not ONLY from American hams, but from other nations as well! THAT, my friend, would force our FCC to act more aggressively against those illegal users, the importers and sellers, and could then
cause a backlash against CB operators ( the illegal ones) in the form of harsh enforcement and fines, funding from Congress, and, thus, an increased number of field agents! Remember: the "BIG, BAD FCC and the United States doesn't even "own" the radio ether, but must work with other nations as well in order to carry out its own legitimate purpose and use of radio.

The CB radio is a dead technology. As previously mentioned, it is "stuck" in 1958 right where it started. Again, compare a CB radio from 1968 and one from 2009. About the only difference is the chrome face or rebel flags and they may've had those in '68! If truckers started hollering for more of this and more of that, the authorities would counter with the technology angle: cellphones, email, fax, voice mail, internet, family radio (FRS) and MURS---ALL have passed the CB radio by. Except for finding your docks, keeping up with Smokey, the CB is a quaint TOY the public now remembers as an ancient fad while they are busy texting away! THAT is the "CB" of today! What's to brag about? Your thousand watt "Leenyar" and your super-duper, beeping, squeaking, 'extree channel'
and ILLEGAL so called "10 Meter" radio STILL won't out-talk a 2 watt, 2 Meter handi talkie that will (potentially) talk to the next state over, nor will it out-talk your cellphone for THAT matter!!!! Yet CBers have this
kind of fascination for a ONE-BAND, outdated set of frequencies in 11 Meters and cling desparately to it, and the only way to enhance it is thru illegal means and thru STEALING frequencies from other users who complied with and respected the laws that are there to protect citizens from harm (interference, denial of access, for one thing!). So they go out and buy these illegal radios wrongly called "10 Meter 'amateur' ( in a pig's eye they are!!!!) radios" in the hope they can cheat the law and take that which belongs to others! And "Youse guys" just can't understand why anybody would be upset by it!!!!!

Now, if you would USE the CB for what it was originally intended, study for and obtain the AMATEUR LICENSE, then FOLLOW the rules of BOTH services, you would find that you could achieve both a rewarding hobby AND get your job done, too! Could you not do THAT?


Gadfly

 

I love using my CB. It's a lot of fun and I enjoy meeting folks and talking to other people I know. But, seriously, the fact that you have to come on this forum just to argue about HAM really kind of makes you a dork. If you have a HAM license and like to use HAM radio, then great but if you want to use a CB and peak and tune your radio, throw a #### kicker on it, then more power to you. Mines been tinkered with and I'm throwing a Palomar on it in a couple of days, but that's beside the point... I understand the argument....

Some CB users have radios that can break in on your precious little HAM channels... but you come on here and not only argue about how you don't want people "illegally" on your precious little channels... you sit here and talk about how CB is dead technology.

You've made your opinion known... all the frequent visitors on this site know it... you've been saying it on here for a couple of years from what i can tell (which is kind of sad)

 

Red Fox, Not being Smart ### We like it because it is a neat thing to communicate with someone on it because its tough to get a contact and a lot of us love that kind of stuff. I have a friend who builds tiny radios, puts them in Altoids tins and talks on .5 Watts or less. Amateur radioRecognition and enhancement of the value of the amateur service to the public as a voluntary noncommercial communication service, particularly with respect to providing emergency communications.

(b) Continuation and extension of the amateur's proven ability to contribute to the advancement of the radio art.
(c) Encouragement and improvement of the amateur service through rules which provide for advancing skills in both the communications and technical phases of the art.
(d) Expansion of the existing reservoir within the amateur radio service of trained operators, technicians, and electronics experts. (e) Continuation and extension of the amateur's unique ability to enhance international goodwill. It's a hobby and everyone's duty to protect it and the frequencies we are permitted to use.

 

You guys always seem to confuse power with reach.
I have done talks halfway across Europe using a cheap CB radio out of the box with a simple vertical antenna mounted on the roof of my old Suzuki jeep using the legal 4 watts.

The reason why you guys got a limited reach is that the radio waves of the 11m band (as well as the ham 12 and 10m bands) behave in many aspects already like VHF waves. They need a strong ionisation of the upper layers of the atmosphere to be reflected and this usually only happens during daytime during the summer months. Else all connections are strictly line of sight and, depending on the height of the antenna above ground (or the surrounding area if you are on top of a hill or a tower) can at maximum give you about 60 miles (distance to the horizon). Beyond that the waves simply disappear in outer space. The intereuropean connections I had happened exactly during special conditions, where such a reflective layer existed, which bounced the radiowaves back to earth, about 500 miles away from where I was.
Mountains or big buildings are also great in shielding such waves.
If you want a reliable long distance connection, you'll have to use other bands, where you have a more regular skip. this is exactly the reason why we hams have access to several bands all over the HF spectrum. E.g. in winter or during night we'll use the lower bands (80m, 40m, 30m), because the excess ionisation during daytime or in summer dampens them, but the leftover ionisation during nightime is just perfect to give them a long reach.
On the other hand in normal summer we use the 20m band, which gives us intercontinental range with low power. The 12 or 10 m bands are a bit more tricky, but under the right conditions give good range as well.
Then, if you want to get the maximuum out of your radio, you'll need a wellmatched antenna mounted on a good spot on your truck, like smack in the middle of your sheet metal roof and wellgrounded.
Else you'll just convert transmitter output power into heat.

Another option would be VHF radios (e.g. 2m band) and to use it in conjunction with repeaters. I don't know about the density of HF repeaters in the rural US, but around here there are plenty to chose, most set up by radio hams for general use.

Jan, DL1JRK

 

P.T.: I can see your point, and have some CB friends who are also HAMS, but they don't use anything near 27mhz, which made me wonder. And the pool of electronics people isn't diminishing from what I hear. But the HAMS occupy a large portion of the radio spectrum, as seen on the charts, and CB only gets a hairline slice. I do believe that it wouldn't matter though; CB'ers would still go out of allotted slots regardless to find quiet and range.

Hamster: good post, although you seem to intentionally left out the fact that power will bouce signals off of houses and objects when skip isn't available and is useless on noisy channels anyway. For whatever reason, it proves out that power works in line of sight transmission, although I do despise an overmodulated radio used to stomp on the radios 100 feet away.
As for 2m, friends of mine got them and gave them up. They said they couldn't find anyone to talk to, but I've never had one myself. I hear it's an easy license to get though. Providing you have some friends with them to talk to.