Why Not Automatic?!

Did anybody else fall asleep reading this post. D is for Cars. Sticks is for big rigs. Gitty up Cowboy. Rawhide!! Oh I did wake up when he put it in manual and did some driving, but fell back to sleep. Push button away my friend. Let us know how u do in a month or so with all that white stuff on the ground

P.S Tried to double clutch downshift in Atlanta traffic,and I failed. I feel like a rookie I could just hear a trainer yelling at me. I wonder if any of you old timers can double clutch down shift after all these years of not even using the clutch. Hmmmmmmmm try it is fun.

 

Hell I think stryker himself fell asleep, just after hitting enter. I want him to take me up on my little offer to prove his point. Perfect time of the year for it through that run can even get us matching loads of pressure treated on super b's for it.

 

Striker-

To each their own, you obviously like your truck, and that's fine, I've had my experiences with autos and simply don't like them.

I think the biggest hiccup in the manual vs. auto debate often comes from the fact that it is considered such a fundamental part of learning to drive a truck. Not learning to drive a manual to drive a truck is like never learning to use the foot-pedals while playing a piano.

As the years have progressed, the bar for driving stick has progressively lowered further and further. Ages ago you learned to drive trucks with two-sticks coming out of the floor, 4x2s, 5x2s, 5x3s, 4x4s, 5x4s. If driver's think shifting a 10-speed "distracts" from driving they've never tried handling a set of sticks before, it'll make handling a 10-speed like driving an automatic. Today, by the time you finish trucking school you'll have a basic knowledge of running a 9 or 10-speed most times, I don't think I've heard of many school graduates having time around 13-speeds, 18-speeds, let alone something with a non-standard pattern like an 15-speed from their trucking school.

I never went to a trucking school, I never believed in them. I was taught by 20, 30, 40, and even 50 year veterans of driving, I learned by doing, out in oilfields, on logging tracks, construction sites, all sorts of areas. By the time I went in for my drive test I had time around 9-speeds, 10-speeds, 13-speeds, 15-speeds, 18-speeds, and even a 7-LL. Since then I've also driven a 5x4 as well as a 6x4. The expectation to learn to drive a manual transmission, and not just a 10-speed, has taught me to confident about handling transmissions I've never driven before. In fact, it has made me want to learn how to handle other transmissions. Oh, by the way, I'm also 21 years old and had never driven a manual transmission before I got in a truck...

So, protesting, desiring to bypass, something traditionally so fundamental to driving a truck is, to many of the veterans, an affront to the industry. It's perceived as a further degredation of the traditional norms and skillsets required to be a driver. Beyond this, you limit yourself in terms of the number of companies you can drive for. What are your aspirations for driving? Do you just want to run up and down the road towing dixie-cups? If that's true, only knowing an automatic you can probably get by, plenty of big fleets have some sort of automatic transmissions in their fleets. But, if you have aspirations beyond the most minimal and basic areas of trucking, I think you'll find yourself in a hard way only knowing how to handle an automatic transmission.

The most important part to learning to drive a manual transmission is patience and practice. You can have shifting, whether it's double-clutching or floating, explained to you in 1,000 different ways, but, nothing will help as much as simply having time behind the wheel. As you noted, the down-shift is the more difficult part, especially since it goes against intuition at first to bring the RPMs up when you're trying to downshift...

As far as your trainer goes, he sounds about like some of the guys I learned to drive from. A 50 year veteran of driving doesn't take lightly to mistakes, and you have to remember, they were likely taught with a wrench over their knuckles when they were shifting. I've been chewed out, cussed at, yelled at, you name it, and I'd get in a truck with any of the driver's I've learned from. They taught me a great deal about driving and about this industry, and at the end of the day, whether they were red-in-the-face or not, they wanted me to learn the right way, and that's worth a lot of anger, cussing, and yelling.

 

sure thing, then you and can come follow me on my run over 160/550/50, let's see who's arm and leg is more worn out from the constant up.down shifting, BTW as far as I'm concerned, the speed limit on all three of those roads is for cars, a real driver knows his rig and his limits. I can generally make up 10 minutes of driving time on 550 between Durango and Ouray. I've yet to see a single manual trans driver even come close to keeping up with me on 550, even guys who live in the area and run it daily. Too much shifting, they get warn out.

 

As I've said earlier, drivers whined about the same BS when airride seats and suspensions came out, when A/C became standard equipment. 10 yrs from now, nobody will know how to do a paperlog, will that make them any less of a truck driver? Few months back when the highway bill passed and the part about mandating elogs was included. I remember hearing on the trucking radio shows: "when elogs become mandatory, I'm quitting, not learning that junk, it's nobodies business, blah, blah, blah". You know what, I despise the idea of elogs as well, but I know my compnay is going to have to do it, so either I'll switch careers (something I don't look forward to) or I'll adapt and overcome. Adapt and overcome, isn't that a Marine Corp. motto, hmmm, I always see so many truckers who are proud of the military, maybe ADAPT AND OVERCOME should be a trucking motto, unless it involves technology, then the motto should be: WHERES MY CAVE, ME WANT TO LIVE IN CAVE.

If you go back and read my comments over the years, I've never said you should learn to drive a manual, if for no other purpose than a reference point. If you read my earlier comments in this thread, I said, I can hop into our old manual frieghtshaker drive it all day without a problem, because I learned to drive a manual. I also learned how to get up and change the channel on my TV manually as a child, I also learned how to do math with my fingers and a pencil. Then I found and embraced technology.

The problem with 99% of these discussions is that nobody wants to learn something new, they all want to whine, cry and complain. Those who whine and cry about auto's fall into these categories: 1. They drove one between '02 and '05 when all the manufacturers had problem and it wasn't the trans fault, but rather computer issues related to emissions equipment that caused other issues and it was easy for drivers to whine about the trans as being the culprit, 2. they never drove one, but their best friends uncles cousins business partners nephew did and he hated is so they hate it as a result, 3. they drove it for a two or three days and had such a bias against it going in that they couldn't bother to learn about it, 4.they are afraid to learn.

I've acknowledged those problems, hell I've even admitted to dealing with them myself. That was then, this is now. The first autoshift truck I drove was a second generation trans, which had problems, 99% of those problems were related to the X/Y shift motors failing prematurely, this was a supplier based issue that Eaton dealt with. The third gen. models, made between '03 and '05 were fine transmission, but they were put in crappy trucks. As I pointed out before, the two '03 Mack Visions we had with the first gen. emissions and 3rd gen. trans were crap, they sucked, had multiple problems. Hell, Mack will tell you all day long they had problems. But, to compare the autoshifts and auto's of today with those setups, is the equivalent of comparing the modern day laptop your most likely using with a TRS-80 (if your old enough to recall those). They were called TRASH-80 for a reason.

As I pointed out recently, my one co-worker has never driven an autoshift that he liked. Anytime his freightshaker was down, he would either take time off to avoid one of the daycabs, or he would move into the spare frieghtshaker (which really was a POS). When the boss bought him this truck, he threatened to quit, wouldn't even look at it. Now, two months later, he babies that thing, we have a company that washes the trucks every two weeks, he loves it so much, every part of it, that he's started washing it weekly with his own money, hell we laughed the other day he was hand washing the hood and sleeper. Yes, it's an autoshift and he's got 30 yrs exp. driving, he hates to admit that he now loves it and won't give it up. Prior to him, we had another old timer (he retired in '08 and passed away this past year), but as he put it, he got his CDL sometime before Christ was born. I don't think there was a truck he hasn't driven. The stories he would tell were great. When he first got in that autoshift daycab, he hated it, but within a few months he loved it as well, and enjoyed it.

 

So the measure of a driver is whether or not they can hop in a truck that utilizes technology which essentially isn't used any more and drive it like an expert? How many 'professional' drivers would have any idea how to properly crank start a model T Ford? And why does it make them any less professional of they can't?

When you go to a doctor, I bet you don't ask if he knows how to do blood letting and leave if he doesn't because he's not professional enough for you. When you board an airliner, I bet you don't ask the pilot if he or she is qualified to fly an old Douglas DC3 and then walk off the plane if they can't (and chances are the pilot in question couldn't get one in the air and back on the ground in one piece if their lives depended on it).

Technology changes how we work. Accept it and embrace it or get out of the way.

 

Take a chill pill Will. Most of us don't care what it is. If it has wheels we are going to drive it till the wheels fall off. Some of us just prefer manual over automatic. Others automatic over manual, but if you think they are going to get rid of the stick anytime soon. Forgettttabout it.

 

You're absolutely right that they complained about new technology. One of the driver's I learned from has been driving for half a century, primarily hauling logs (chances are you've seen his truck down in Montrose). I remember him telling me that it was years before any logging truck down there had air-ride suspension because they didn't believe it would hold up to the off-road conditions and being overloaded with timber. I don't disagree that many driver's don't like dealing with new technology, hell, I don't doing oversize. I like a simple, direct set-up. I think part of the luddite attitude comes from the desire to stick with tried-and-true technology, something we've seen and know works. Regarding the USMC motto of Improvise, Adapat, and Overcome, well, can't we apply that to this newbie's situation, that he should improvise, adapat, and overcome by learning to drive a manual transmission? Simply a matter of perspective.

I assume you meant "never said you shouldn't learn to drive a manual."

Nor have I said that driving an automatic is inherently a bad thing. What I have said is that he needs to be prepared to have certain companies unwilling to hire him and limited opportunities within in the trucking industry. What I have said is being unwilling to learn to drive a manual is a bad thing.

The two automatics I drove were Allison's, one was in a '94 Mack and one was in a '97 or '98 Freightliner. I've never liked how roughly they shift, that's the biggest part.

Your right that the vast majority of driver's don't want to learn something new, precisely as this newbie doesn't want to learn to drive a manual transmission. It's the same attitude from the other side of the aisle.

I've heard of the many problems that the shift motors had, another reason I'm somewhat wary of them...

This doesn't surprise me, a lot of the older driver's I know don't mind driving an automatic, some even like them. After 40 years of swinging gears being able to push a button is a nice alternative. What I'd be interested to hear from these veterans, however, is whether or not they think a new driver should learn to drive a manual or not. Liking to drive an automatic or manual doesn't change the necessity within the industry of learning to drive one.

At the end of the day if the boss said I needed to use a truck with an automatic, whether it be Allison, Eaton, or Meritor, I'd still use it. Part of the attitude of "getting the job done" is to use what is available to you. I may not like the truck, I may not like the shifting, I may not like this, that, or the other, but, at the end of the day, if its what I have to get the job done I'll make it work.

The primary thing I have advocated in this thread is to learn to drive the manual transmission, it keeps his opportunities more open and, as you said, it gives him a reference point. I never said that once he has his CDL that he should HAVE to drive a manual transmission. I've advocated that he be patient and practice.

I will still stand by the statement that I disagree that driving a manual distracts your driving, as one earlier poster said, this is the logic of a bean-counter and someone who's never been in a truck.

I will stand by the statement that I do not like driving a truck with an automatic transmission, though, I won't refuse driving a truck with an automatic.

And I will stand by the statement that all new entrants in this industry should learn to drive a manual transmission as, if nothing else, and in your words, as a reference point.

That being said, I will also concede that automatic transmissions do have their place in the trucking industry. A lot of the massive heavy-haul trucks will have automatics in them for push-pull operations to make sure the trucks are all pulling/ pushing in the same gear and operating range. I never said automatics are useless or that they have no place in the industry.

A "real" truck driver should be willing to learn and handle any sort of transmission thrown at them, whether it be a quadriplex or an autoshift.

 

Bullhaulers, oilfield, and heavy haul still use sticks enough that it's not a bad thing to know how to run them. The guy who taught me to drive has a 6x4 in his personal truck, a buddy drives for an oversize outfit where almost all of their trucks have 5x4s, a lot of older oilfield trucks still have 5x4 or 6x4s in them, there was a local dirt company that was ordering Kenworth's with 6x4s clear up into the mid-to-late '90s and still has a lot of them in the fleet.

It depends on what part of the industry you're in. If you're a freight-hauler, there's not a whole lot of reason to know how to run a set of boxes, but, there are still sectors where it helps to know how to run them...

 

Well you just showed me you have no clue, clutch is for starting and stopping dont need the darn thing for shifting. And I would love to see you run the route from Vancouver BC to Golden BC with your automatic and have a snow flakes chance of a sun landing in keeping up with me. There is a reason I said super B's ever seen the road west of Golden ?